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 IC to get a Cummins as an option
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2296 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2013 :  1:46:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know we've talked about this before but it seemed to be only for the heavy over the road truck engines. Well, it looks like it's official now. See the second story on the page. http://www.streetinsider.com/Corporate+News/Navistar+

Wolf0r
Top Member

USA
2179 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2013 :  2:10:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So we can get a Cummins in a Bluebird, Thomas or International now. Pretty cool

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Fastback
Top Member

972 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2013 :  2:28:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Or will it be standard equipment with the DT as an option?

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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Fastback
Top Member

972 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2013 :  2:30:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oooh, check out www.icbus.com

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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RichBusman
Advanced Member

451 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2013 :  6:11:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Putting lipstick on a pig.

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Bus Tech II
Senior Member

106 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2013 :  05:06:52 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bus Tech II's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Its about time!! Welcome to the real world IC.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2296 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2013 :  05:08:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RichBusman

Putting lipstick on a pig.





Yep, This reminds me of Deere back in the 50s when they were dissing a multi-cylinder engine. All along they were developing one but kept telling customers how bad those other companies were for making such a complicated engine. In 1960 they abandoned the two cylinder engine completely for a "new generation" of tractor. Of course Deere make a pretty good machine but I'm not impressed with IC.

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

972 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2013 :  06:26:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No longer any mention of the Maxxforce 7 V8 product on this page of available truck engines; http://www.internationaltrucks.com/trucks/engines/finder/

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
355 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2013 :  08:28:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I wonder if the Cummins option will be supported through the ServiceMaxx software?
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Brad Barker
Administrator

USA
838 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2013 :  6:22:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit Brad Barker's Homepage  Click to see Brad Barker's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Orders for Cummins ISB Navistar CE buses will start being accepted as early as October with production beginnning January 2014. It will only be available in the CE to start. Navistar is still working on an SCR solution to their navistar engine. The MaxxForce engine is standard equipment with Cummins as an option.

Brad A. Barker
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08 Thomas EF
Top Member

526 Posts

Posted - 09/21/2013 :  08:42:57 AM  Show Profile  Visit 08 Thomas EF's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hmmmm.... Now that Intl is using Cummins, could this mean a potential return of the FE?
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BJ Henderson
Advanced Member

USA
225 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2013 :  07:43:21 AM  Show Profile  Send BJ Henderson an AOL message  Reply with Quote
New CEO there makes a difference. Who says one man cannot change the world ? :) Well, our little corner of it anyway!

CMTT,CMAT,CMBT
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Fastback
Top Member

972 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2013 :  08:13:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 08 Thomas EF

Hmmmm.... Now that Intl is using Cummins, could this mean a potential return of the FE?



Or the "Forward Advantage" FE?

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2296 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2013 :  09:45:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What's going on at IC anyway? I heard the SEC is investigating now.

Bryan
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
355 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2013 :  10:26:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.sbwire.com/press-releases/navistar-international-corp-nysenav-investor-alert-investigation-of-potential-wrongdoing-by-directors-297728.htm
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
355 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2013 :  11:17:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a fleet 100% Navistar, for 20+ years.

Is it time to jump ship?

Seriously considering the Lion brand with the Cummins.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2296 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2013 :  2:39:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wouldn't go with Lyon personally. I'm an unashamed BB fan. For the past 20 years I've always been able to count on their sevice after the sale. They're a solid built bus too.

Bryan
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
355 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2013 :  07:39:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I have a bunch of birds on Navistar chassis.
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
355 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2013 :  09:08:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why not Lion?
http://lionbuses.com/en/
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2296 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2013 :  4:51:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by second.flood

Why not Lion?
http://lionbuses.com/en/



Personally if you have a company that has no support/ dealer network, I'm out. I'd stay with Ic over going that route. Even with the problems you will always have the local truck dealer to help, even if the bus part goes out of business. Not saying they are, don't give me any grief on this guys.

Bryan
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
355 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2013 :  06:54:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a current vendor who is also a Spartan rep.
I have two local Lion dealerships, one 15 min's away.
I do have concerns with Lion's staying power, I also have concerns about the future of Navistar.
Our Bird dealer is far away yet very good, the Thomas dealer is out of the question (poor service).
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Fastback
Top Member

972 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2013 :  07:06:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have no doubt that the composite material in the Lion bus will not rust and will likely hold up fine on paved roads.
I would love to see a rural district in my neck of the woods get one and be a long term test pilot on gravel roads. Forgive me but that battery tray/box looks a bit hokey and how will that step well hold up over time taking what the front wheel throws up at it?

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 09/27/2013 07:08:02 AM
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RichBusman
Advanced Member

451 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2013 :  08:30:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Both the battery box and stepwell are reinforced with galvanized steel framing. The battery box is anti-acid poly and the stepwell is thick poly. Don't see what the long term issue would be, considering how well reinforced they are, and how strong the poly material is.

I would also add for fans of some brands... get under the bus and measure your frame rails. I know one manufacturer has 1/4" frame rails on conventionals versus 5/16" on the Lion. Considering that operators are being asked to keep buses longer and longer, buying a heavier frame in my opinion is rather important.

Edited by - RichBusman on 09/27/2013 08:35:03 AM
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2296 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2013 :  8:45:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RichBusman

Both the battery box and stepwell are reinforced with galvanized steel framing. The battery box is anti-acid poly and the stepwell is thick poly. Don't see what the long term issue would be, considering how well reinforced they are, and how strong the poly material is.

I would also add for fans of some brands... get under the bus and measure your frame rails. I know one manufacturer has 1/4" frame rails on conventionals versus 5/16" on the Lion. Considering that operators are being asked to keep buses longer and longer, buying a heavier frame in my opinion is rather important.



Bird rates their frame at 50,000 psi, whatever that means. Wonder if Lion has a psi rating?

Bryan
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Crown
Senior Member

65 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2013 :  11:02:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit Crown's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
So we can get a Cummins in a Bluebird, Thomas or International now. Pretty cool


All of our newer Blue Bird and Thomas transit buses have Cummins power.
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JRob
Senior Member

182 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2013 :  7:17:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit JRob's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
I would also add for fans of some brands... get under the bus and measure your frame rails. I know one manufacturer has 1/4" frame rails on conventionals versus 5/16" on the Lion. Considering that operators are being asked to keep buses longer and longer, buying a heavier frame in my opinion is rather important.


Serious answer to your question would be this: Thickness of the frame alone would not adequately define what is or isn't the better frame.

You want a vehicle framerail to have a combination of strength for load carrying capacity and flexibility for repetitive stress management. Therefore, you should calculate the RBM of the frame by calculating its Section Modulus and Yield Strength. This allows you to compare the relative pros and cons of everyone's frame design by taking into account material properties, thickness, frame depth, etc.

So a 5/16" frame that is an 1" or 2" shorter than one 1/4" thick may actually be less strong or it may not be flexible enough to twist and deflect under load adequately or it may be better. There just isn't enough information to know.
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RichBusman
Advanced Member

451 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2013 :  06:31:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://spartanchassis.com/specialty/frontenginebus.asp

Lion is rated at 50,000 psi, and like I said 5/16" thick. I'll try to do some research on frame heights/depth and share my findings.
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partsman_ba
Administrator

United States
285 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2013 :  08:31:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RichBusman

http://spartanchassis.com/specialty/frontenginebus.asp

Lion is rated at 50,000 psi, and like I said 5/16" thick. I'll try to do some research on frame heights/depth and share my findings.




Honestly... has anyone here ever had a problem with the frame on their buses? I think the most important things in school bus manufacture are fit and finish and service after the sale. I've got BB, Thomas and IC dealers nearby that will take care of warranty issues for us - but Lion? I mean, they could be building the best bus in the world but if they aren't near us, they can't take care of us.

Can you tell I'm not an "early adopter" person? Still am not sold on Kia or Hyundai, and look how long they've been in the auto market.
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
355 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2013 :  09:28:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll have to post some pictures of frame rust (10-12 year old) on my buses soon.
Some extra metal there wouldn't hurt.
I'd be surprised if a company like Spartan would spend more money to make a weaker frame.
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Wolf0r
Top Member

USA
2179 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2013 :  11:55:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When I was a GM tech I had to work on whatever RV, Bus, Truck, etc that used a big block chevy. Can you imagine the Cummins dealer lot filled with Internationals, Thomas, Bluebird and Lion? It's gonna be fun.

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson
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RichBusman
Advanced Member

451 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2013 :  2:54:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I did a very unscientific look at all 4 of the current large conventionals the other day, and it appears all of them use roughly a 10" tall frame with a roughly 3" flange.

I personally would argue that a 5/16" frame would hold up significantly better in a corrosive environment than a 1/4" frame. After a number of years, especially without undercarriage treatment, these frames look like they've been through war.
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99intamtran
New Member

9 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2013 :  3:25:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit 99intamtran's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I just read about the Cummins 5.0L V8 diesel, is it a possibility that IC will be receiving this engine as an option?
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Girardin_71
Top Member

Canada
626 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2013 :  03:16:39 AM  Show Profile  Send Girardin_71 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
i was just if IC will still offer the Maxxforce 7 along side the Cummins 6.7 Engine and Maxxforce DT?

Girardin/Blue-Bird are my favorite school buses

http://www.g71bdpt.net
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2296 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2013 :  09:42:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Girardin_71

i was just if IC will still offer the Maxxforce 7 along side the Cummins 6.7 Engine and Maxxforce DT?


I've heard that all IH engines will be discontinued in med duty. I also saw the story about the small v8. A reliable v8 has been hard to produce for some reason. I hope Cummins is successful.

Bryan
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
355 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2013 :  09:51:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The MaxxForce 7 will be the stock engine, The DT and Cummins will be options.

Jack Allen, Navistar executive vice president and chief operating officer. "The ISB will complement our existing engine offerings and will be a catalyst as we look to improve our medium-duty truck and bus business in 2014 and beyond."
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Fastback
Top Member

972 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2013 :  11:18:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't see the DT going away.
The question may become how few MaxxForce 7s can they sell and still justify producing it.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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