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 IC CE200 body cross member cracks
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2184 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2013 :  11:33:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have two 2010 CE200s that have body cross members cracked where the body mount goes through them. It's the mount that looks like a half u-bolt. The mount goes down and hooks under the bottom flange of the chassis frame and runs up along the web then through a body cross member with a nut on top. Anyone else having this problem?

Fastback
Top Member

897 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2013 :  12:44:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
https://evalue.internationaldelivers.com/service_kb/DocTool/ArticleViewer.aspx?ControlID=2993&SEQLanguage=1001

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
663 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2013 :  1:22:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll take a look...Which cross member are you seeing cracked??
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2184 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2013 :  2:35:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The ones that have that special bolt and bracket. There are three in the back right in front of the rear axle. The fourth one is behind the battery box.
Thanks for the link but I don't have my password for the IC site anymore, Fastback!

Bryan
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2013 :  03:06:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is it possible to purchase new special mount bolts and install them in crossmembers nearby which are not cracked and then do a visual repair on the area where the bolts used to go through?
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slippert
Advanced Member

USA
353 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2013 :  05:37:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
CE300's have the same issue most of the time it is near and just in front of the rear axle, That is where the majority of mine have had isses... some of the problem with mine were they put the rubber isolator on the opposite side of the cross member and when u-bolt or j-hook was tighten it distorted the cross member...nothing under that side to tighten against..
Looking at my 2011-12's it appears they are using a larger isolator that covers the whole area under those cross members..
They do offer a reinforcement kit(2232176C91)or (2232174C91) left and right are slightly different for repair of such issues, or my dealer would cover repairs under body warranty... other wise on the ones I have had break/crack out of warranty were repaired/reinforced in house..with steel purchased at the local fab shop..

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bwest
Administrator

United States
2184 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2013 :  09:32:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the information. I am having the dealer do it for me. I am worried about liability. If one of mine crashes I want the weld on there done by someone who "theoretically" has done a lot more of them than I have.

Bryan
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J. Kimmel Midwest
New Member

4 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2013 :  07:16:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit J. Kimmel Midwest's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Need to know when was the last time you did the recommended inspection for the body tie-downs?? If you check your owner’s manual it will state what kind of maintenance that needs to be done.


Tie-Down Inspection

During the recommended tie-down inspection and maintenance, the following rules should be used. The body tie down bolts should be tightened within 30 days or 1000,-2000,miles and quarterly thereafter. The body tie downs must be torqued correctly for the application to eliminate floor sill/body damage. The body tie downs must be part of a normal preventative maintenance check.

CAUTION:FAILURE TO PROPERLY TORQUE TIE DOWN BOLTS CAN RESULT IN FLOOR SILL/BODY DAMAGE:


Body Tie Down Torques
Formed Tie Down 1/2"--13x2,1/2" 30--40 Ft-lbs.
J-Bolt Tie Down 1/2"--13x12,1/4 " 30--40 Ft-lbs.
U-Bolt Tie Down 1/2"--13x13" 30--40 Ft-lbs.
Outrigger CE Model 1/2"--13x5,1/2 25-30 Ft-lbs.



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bwest
Administrator

United States
2184 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2013 :  08:17:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's good information to know. I guess I'm old school here but I can't remember the last time I had a problem with body mounts. I check them with my hand to make sure they are not loose (I have found a few) but other than that, no problems. This could be because it was on a competitive make but I'm not sure. The oldest bus in our fleet is 15 years old and has/ had some body cross member cracks but only because the mounting pads (looks like a piece of mud flap under there) came out and I didn't see it. That wasn't by a mount, rather it was where it comes in contact with the chassis frame. Of course that is fixed now. Just sayin'

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3250 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2013 :  08:31:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am shocked (sort of) that IC is still using J-hook and bolts to mount bodies. The Blue Bird, Carpenter, Thomas, Wayne, Superior, etc. method seems to have zero problems while Ward, AmTran, IC isn't exactly known for keeping body and chassis together well in crashes.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2184 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2013 :  08:37:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To clarify there are only 4 on the whole bus. The rest are the clips that use the top flange like BB (& I'm assuming others). These 4 are the only ones causing this problem.

Bryan
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slippert
Advanced Member

USA
353 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2013 :  09:49:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On my CE's the only reason, I can see why they put those 4 J-hook style clamps on the body is due to air valves, tanks or obstructions in the build process that makes it more difficult to tighten a standard frame clip in the same area... and the j-hooks would be less time consuming in a factory setting.. than reaching around and fishing a tool thru and between the obstruction to tighten up a frame clip... I don't think the j-hooks are critical equipment here in Michigan, if a standard frame clip was able to be installed in place of it... maybe some states require them?

I have buses with 3 of them on the left rail by where the air tanks mount and 1 by the rear axle left rail where there is an air valve mounted in the way... some of mine only have the three by air tanks.. the valve in back is located slightly different and opens up that cross member, so the j-hook is gone and has a frame clip there from factory..
For the most part I have only had the frame mount cross members in front and near the rear axle crack with a j-hook or u-bolt installed at that location... the ones farther up have never cracked so far... ergo the buses that I found with cracks were repaired and the j-hook went in the scrap bin and a frame clip was installed at that location.. most of those repairs are going on over two years, and still look good... better than factory..
I haven't so far found one that wasn't tight enough causing a cross member to crack,I echo what you said bwest,, and the only ones on mine that have had problems are the j-hook/ u-bolts hold downs.. kind of in the same area the older bluebirds were always missing mounting pads every service..
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2184 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2013 :  11:47:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks! I prefer to let the local IH dealer body shop deal with these. As I said above, I can just see a crash and the ensuing investigation. If I put that on someone who has lots of "experience" then it should get done properly and I avoid the liability for my small district (not to mention me). If you knew me personally you would know that most of what I do is on the cheep when it is safe. I do the borderline stuff on farm equipment at home. lol

Bryan
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slippert
Advanced Member

USA
353 Posts

Posted - 07/14/2013 :  5:43:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am in no way shape or form trying to talk u into doing a repair your not comfortable with bryan.... just sayin,, I have 2005 thru 2008 IC buses that I have found breaks in the bottom flange of that X-member and surprisingly the U-bolt, j-hook or frame clip were torqued properly when it cracked.... it seems to be a fairly common issue with IC's, they have been making a cross member repair kit for quite along time now, along with the "I know" article fastback mentioned.... fortunately I have done plenty of frame, structural repair in the last 30 yrs., I feel comfortable and confident in my ability to make a proper repair.... I think about liability also from time to time, pretty much everything I/we do as mechanics can/could ultimately have a law suit attached to it, if something goes wrong..... if a repair is outside my skill level or comfort zone I have no problem, reading the manual, calling in help or sending it out, but if I start worrying about liability too much,,, it will probably be time for me to seek a new profession...

Edited by - slippert on 07/14/2013 5:55:33 PM
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2184 Posts

Posted - 07/15/2013 :  11:09:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
^^ yep, that's what I'm seeing. This one may be worse than mine. Hope everyone checks theirs. Post here if you find them on your units. Wonder why I haven't seen this talked about on here before? Looks like that mounting pad is about to slip out of there too. lol

Bryan
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slippert
Advanced Member

USA
353 Posts

Posted - 07/15/2013 :  11:54:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That is far worse than any I have found on mine, but looks familiar... I would venture to say that the j-hook doesn't have proper torque on it either,lol... Hard to properly torque a part..when it bends like tin foil with road use and that style mount

Edited by - slippert on 07/15/2013 12:01:28 PM
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2184 Posts

Posted - 07/15/2013 :  12:25:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Looks like there would be a recall on this. I hope we don't find out but I wonder what this looks like after a crash. Wonder if this has been a cause of some problems in a crash?

Bryan
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2184 Posts

Posted - 07/16/2013 :  08:18:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just looked at my 2006 CE200. It only has one clamp like we're talking about and it is not cracking where it goes through the cross member.

Bryan
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2184 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2013 :  08:23:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by joeheb

Pic I posted is covered under warranty. Good thing.



That's awesome! What year was it?

Bryan
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Wolf0r
Top Member

USA
2175 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2013 :  09:06:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slippert

I am in no way shape or form trying to talk u into doing a repair your not comfortable with bryan.... just sayin,, I have 2005 thru 2008 IC buses that I have found breaks in the bottom flange of that X-member and surprisingly the U-bolt, j-hook or frame clip were torqued properly when it cracked.... it seems to be a fairly common issue with IC's, they have been making a cross member repair kit for quite along time now, along with the "I know" article fastback mentioned.... fortunately I have done plenty of frame, structural repair in the last 30 yrs., I feel comfortable and confident in my ability to make a proper repair.... I think about liability also from time to time, pretty much everything I/we do as mechanics can/could ultimately have a law suit attached to it, if something goes wrong..... if a repair is outside my skill level or comfort zone I have no problem, reading the manual, calling in help or sending it out, but if I start worrying about liability too much,,, it will probably be time for me to seek a new profession...



Right On! But ya I agree with Bryan some stuff you just don't want to get involved in.

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson

Edited by - Wolf0r on 07/17/2013 09:35:42 AM
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3250 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2013 :  11:56:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
www.nhtsa.gov File a complaint if they won't correct it.
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slippert
Advanced Member

USA
353 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2013 :  09:13:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

www.nhtsa.gov File a complaint if they won't correct it.



Personal experience,,, has never been a problem getting Manufacture/dealer to cover broken x-member issues... when in warranty period... and normally it has been the x-member just ahead of the axle with j-hook or a u-bolt,, haven't yet had any issues with the x-members/mounts father up breaking regardless of the the mount style and haven't seen the frame clip style break a cross member at rear axle in my fleet yet...


Those same buses that had x-member fixed and new j-hook installed back then,,, are 6 and 7 yrs old now and I am finding where the little 4 to 5 inch repair kit IC used... cracking is showing up again... having it pull on just a couple of inch area as originally designed.. doesn't seem to hold up.. if they use the same kit now as they did 2-3 yrs ago when repairing those at your dealer you will want to keep track of them and probably in 2 to 3 more yrs you will find them cracking again.. That is why I decided to repair them this time myself,, and I will guarantee my repair will out last the useful life of the bus...

Comes down to the fact that if manufacture is going to use a j-hook or Texas u-bolt mount anywhere on the body those floor panels/cross members need more strength built in to them.... A little added material in cross member area would go a long way ..IMO .. and it would be easy when building floor sections for use in bus plant...also before all covered with undercoating..that is about the worst part of job when fixing them is cleaning the undercoat off so you can actually do some decent welding on them..!

Edited by - slippert on 07/19/2013 09:31:06 AM
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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
663 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2013 :  12:36:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I showed my guys the above photo and so everyone's aware. So far about 10 CE's have been in for service with no problems; 2007, 2009, & 2010's. I did notice on the last one that there was a piece of back-up channel I could feel up in there. Maybe they all have that? There's a 2011 just outside the office now...I'll have to go take a look.

I'm all paved roads here with not very much road salt/chemicals. What kind of operating conditions do you have bwest and joeheb that may be contributing??

Edited by - Mechan1c on 07/19/2013 12:37:44 PM
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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
663 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2013 :  2:16:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My 2011's have 4 more J clamps(7 total), and 2 U clamps that my other buses don't have. All snug and uncracked for now...
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2184 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2013 :  6:28:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mechan1c

I showed my guys the above photo and so everyone's aware. So far about 10 CE's have been in for service with no problems; 2007, 2009, & 2010's. I did notice on the last one that there was a piece of back-up channel I could feel up in there. Maybe they all have that? There's a 2011 just outside the office now...I'll have to go take a look.

I'm all paved roads here with not very much road salt/chemicals. What kind of operating conditions do you have bwest and joeheb that may be contributing??



About 75% gravel with lots of potholes!

Bryan
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slippert
Advanced Member

USA
353 Posts

Posted - 07/22/2013 :  06:00:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[/quote]

100% city streets with tons of construction around. Bad thing is, we're in the process of moving so our fleet is at a temporary location. And at the location our buses have to jump a curve to enter and exit the parking lot, making a turn while jumping the curve is putting a lot of stress on the body mounts. We have had 14 body mounts brake on us since we've been at the temp location not to mention replacing 7 front ends. It would've made too much sense to cut the curve and make a drive way. We have never had any broken body mounts until they started curb hopping.
[/quote]



I can see where if your jumping curbs those mounts could look like the pic above and I would be hard pressed as a manufacture to cover under warranty, if they find that out.... it will probably be considered over and above the structural design of the body...

The ones in my fleet that have cracked were fairly new when it happened the first time..These were my 05-08 IC buses and it wasn't every bus in those yrs. probably 20%... I blamed it on the roads we travel always rough frozen and potholes thru winter, and not much better thru the warmer months.. wasn't a wide spread problem and dealer always warrantied them for the 5 yrs.
So far my 2010 and newer buses are holing up fine, but looking at them... IC used a larger rubber pad on those wide cross members where the mount is installed and 90% of the mounts are frame clips. might have 2 j-hooks up front by Air tanks and batt box..

If my drivers were jumping curbs and ditches, or off roading them..something kind of out of the norm... IMO, when you stated you have had 14 since moving to a temp facility... I don't think I could blame the bus for the problem...
Normal road use for a bus, I expect them to hold up for most of the buses life anyway.. but add in a turning twist and a curb jump,,,don't think you can expect any different outcome... you are lucky your dealer would fix under warranty...

Edited by - slippert on 07/22/2013 06:28:51 AM
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
217 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2013 :  09:24:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We have over 400 of these CE's. They are all doing it. We have been repairing them per Document ID: IK2200070 Title: Bus Body Tie Down, Floor Sill Repair Applies To: All Bus Models. We also had 2 2012 VIN buses that were cracked and repaired by the dealer under warranty. They should have read the I-know doc better, and my personal opinion is that we would have done a better repair in-house. Unfortunately there is very little to be proud of as an IC corp fan with the latest school bus offerings. Poor quality, poor management and poor customer support.



Bruce
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05ICCE
Senior Member

USA
64 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2013 :  4:56:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit 05ICCE's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I checked our 04, 05 and the 06 this afternoon. all are in great shape but will be checking during bus service.

Mr. Scott, "because he drives a COOL BUS"
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Bus Boy 39
Top Member

USA
1315 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2013 :  11:55:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Two of our 2013's, and one of our 2012's did not pass state inspection because of cracked cross members. They were sent back to Blue Bird to be repaired and the cost was covered under warranty. So this issues isn't limited to IC. Please check your Birds if you have them......

I'll show you my air brakes if you show me yours.
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wilsonjr.
New Member

1 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2013 :  6:59:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit wilsonjr.'s Homepage  Reply with Quote
hi iam new here and I would like to say hello to everyone's I work on schools bus only body works and I have never did a thomas bus I have 5or6 broke it rail and they sent me the complete main floor sill repair kit but no one I know how to put it together so I went to search in the internet and found this page do u got anything for me like pictures or something like u got on this page or step by step post me back or email me thank you for your time
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