Read about the Great Fleets Across America
Subscribe

School Bus Fleet Magazine Forums
School Bus Fleet Magazine Forums
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ
 All Forums
 Professional Garage
 Enter Forum: Professional Garage
 T444E hard to start
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

Andrew Bienhaus
Active Member

23 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2013 :  1:01:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit Andrew Bienhaus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hey folks,
Thanks in advance, for any advice.
I found the forums by googling for this same issue, but hoping now that I have tried a few things, and have codes, it will help me narrow my search *out in the cold* if I relate them and seek your feedback.

2000 Int T444E, under a Corbeil Bus. :)
317,000km, but new to us.
Hard starter when we picked it up, rough idle, but once running, ran for 3 hour run home with no problems.
Started next day, no problems. Etc.

Sat over long weekend, and now back to no start.
Catches, it's trying to go, but no go.
Sounds a lot like the injector seals or injectors, as I have read online many places. (today however, I can't get it to start, so no way to check temp of runners and try and narrow injector or seal suspects.

Codes I get, if I am doing it right are:
1/263/222/113/263/313/324/626/525

Oil is plentiful, and relatively clean. Fresh tank of fuel (driven prior to and after fillup), but not removed fuel filter for inspection yet. (one site suggested if there is slimy oil on the filter, that's a sign of worn injector seals)

Seals are available locally for $20 an injector, I just have to pull one and see if they are still original copper or are upgraded stainless, apparently. (according to local parts guy)

Next I guess I need to find the injectors... ;-)
(yes, my first bus - second diesel, and by far largest)

Thanks much guys! Appreciate it.

Fastback
Top Member

955 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2013 :  1:10:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Have you checked the glow plugs and relay?

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
Go to Top of Page

Andrew Bienhaus
Active Member

23 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2013 :  1:46:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit Andrew Bienhaus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Not as of yet.
From what I read, glow plugs cycle on during the "wait to start", and if successful that light will go out. And it does.
(of course I admit I could have misunderstood)

Should I be checking them?
If they were bad, wouldn't I have a problem with every cold start? (example, overnight where it was below freezing)
Go to Top of Page

Andrew Bienhaus
Active Member

23 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2013 :  3:26:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit Andrew Bienhaus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
ok, additional information.
After much effort (and now an actual engine warning light staying on) I got it running again.

Immediately used temp reader to check headers from each cylinder, and here's what I see.
(forgive the incorrect numbering system)

Driver side, all are on, banging away, warming up.
Passenger side, 1,2,4, are cold. #3 is warming up slowly.

As it warmed up, one more on the passenger side kicked in slowly.
And then under some light "cold weather idling" practices, the other two came around.
Went for a little drive, and performance improved as it warmed up.

Return to driveway, and we now have relatively comparable temps on the manifolds.
Driver side overall hotter than passenger side, and #3 still hottest... but as they all sat there idling, all cooled and evened out around 300 degrees F.

So, 3 bad injectors? 3 bad seals?
Haven't priced injectors yet... but seals seem a cheap route to try first.

Open of course to opinions... not trying to prove that I have the same problem as someone else, but, it certainly sounds exactly like other postings. :)

thanks guys! appreciate all thoughts....
Go to Top of Page

Andrew Bienhaus
Active Member

23 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2013 :  6:35:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit Andrew Bienhaus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yet more information... for anyone reading along? :-)

So it sat for 3 hours, at -1 C outside. (about 30deg F)

Just now, I turned it over, click click click zoom.
No problemo. Trouble light out too.
Full power, no issues, went for another drive. :-)
Go to Top of Page

C.HARDY
Advanced Member

350 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2013 :  9:08:14 PM  Show Profile  Click to see C.HARDY's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
The wait to start will cycle even if they arent working with a T444E. Its not like the older 7.3L where the light would immediately go out. They will fool you!

"Hardybusman"
Go to Top of Page

Fastback
Top Member

955 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2013 :  07:32:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew Bienhaus

Not as of yet.
From what I read, glow plugs cycle on during the "wait to start", and if successful that light will go out. And it does.
(of course I admit I could have misunderstood)

Should I be checking them?
If they were bad, wouldn't I have a problem with every cold start? (example, overnight where it was below freezing)



I certainly would on a hard/no start on a T444E
Check the relay first, one giveaway of an issue there is a terminal with a nut that appears rusty or has an appearance of having been overheated.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
Go to Top of Page

Andrew Bienhaus
Active Member

23 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2013 :  08:42:28 AM  Show Profile  Visit Andrew Bienhaus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ok, can do, that's easy.
Just have to locate the relay now... ;-)
Go to Top of Page

Fastback
Top Member

955 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2013 :  08:52:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew Bienhaus

Ok, can do, that's easy.
Just have to locate the relay now... ;-)



Should be near the ECM mounted on rocker cover or at front of LH rocker cover if this is the older "3 box" engine (ECM not engine mounted)

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
Go to Top of Page

Andrew Bienhaus
Active Member

23 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2013 :  1:47:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit Andrew Bienhaus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
ECM is mounted on the rocker. Thanks.

Also, in theory... (work with me here)... if it's the glow plugs, and it's down to 4 or 5 below freezing tonight, and I plug in the block heater overnight...

If the engine fires right away, we know it's the glow plugs, right?
If it behaves the same as today/yesterday, then it's injectors.

That seem like sound logic?
Go to Top of Page

Fastback
Top Member

955 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2013 :  07:53:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew Bienhaus

ECM is mounted on the rocker. Thanks.

Also, in theory... (work with me here)... if it's the glow plugs, and it's down to 4 or 5 below freezing tonight, and I plug in the block heater overnight...

If the engine fires right away, we know it's the glow plugs, right?
If it behaves the same as today/yesterday, then it's injectors.

That seem like sound logic?



No, too many variables.

I would not be so quick to condemn the injectors, I have T444Es with over 200k miles and have never had an injector out. I have however replaced quite a few glow plugs and numerous glow plug relays.
If your glow plug system is not as it should be you are going to have to fix it eventually, why not do it before diving into the high dollar/high labor components?

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 04/04/2013 07:58:44 AM
Go to Top of Page

Andrew Bienhaus
Active Member

23 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2013 :  3:27:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit Andrew Bienhaus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Amen.
With block heater plugged in overnight, it was click click click vrooooooom.
so, we're checking glow plugs on sunday. :-)

I checked the relay, and it appears to be good. (signal to fire is there, and 11.9v appears when it fires)

thanks guys.

Edited by - Andrew Bienhaus on 04/05/2013 4:07:19 PM
Go to Top of Page

baptistbusman1
Senior Member

USA
66 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2013 :  7:07:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have had many, many, many 444's that have had bad injectors that I have had to plug in at night for them to start. After the injectors were replaced, they didn't need to be plugged in anymore. I'd bet your last dollar your going to need injectors.

I was formally Baptistbusman. However, I lost my password, and had not updated my email address.

Here is a link to my old posts. http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum/search.asp?mode=DoIt&MEMBER_ID=1846
Go to Top of Page

Andrew Bienhaus
Active Member

23 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2013 :  7:53:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit Andrew Bienhaus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Or, injector seals?
Or, just go straight for the injectors...
Go to Top of Page

baptistbusman1
Senior Member

USA
66 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2013 :  1:22:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When you said you temp tested the cylinders and you got this result, "Driver side, all are on, banging away, warming up. Passenger side, 1,2,4, are cold. #3 is warming up slowly," shows me your injectors are not working correctly, either because they are worn out or the wiring harness under the valve cover is messed up. All your injectors need to be spraying fuel the correct way for the engine to start and run properly. Manifold not heating up = cylinder not firing = injector not working.

While you have it apart, pull your glow plugs and test them.

I've said it before, don't let this engine outsmart you.

I was formally Baptistbusman. However, I lost my password, and had not updated my email address.

Here is a link to my old posts. http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum/search.asp?mode=DoIt&MEMBER_ID=1846
Go to Top of Page

Andrew Bienhaus
Active Member

23 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2013 :  5:22:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit Andrew Bienhaus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
hehehe I like that advice. :-)
(I'll keep telling myself I'm smarter than it)

Ok, using what little daylight, and a hint from the powerstroke forums, I pulled the 9 pin connector from the top of both rockers. Checked resistance of everything.

Injectors were all around 3 ohms, which is supossed to be within spec, if I read right. (so no obvious dead injector electrics, at least, between the 9 pin plug and the injector when cold)

Glow plugs all came up as .6 ohms, which I thought was a little low, until I checked a new one from PartSource, and it was about the same.
All but one, one plug was dead. (on the good side of the engine)

So, just to be sure on the resistance question, I pulled one of the .6 ohm ones, and gave it 12v... what a lovely orange glow! :-)
I put it back, and replaced the one that had open circuit. (now all 8, read the same resistance, which varies depending where I get my ground from, but it's consistent at the 9 pin plug, both sides)

And, the relay is working.

So, back to injectors.

Which, fired perfectly (as in nice quick start, smooth idle) when I plugged the block heater in overnight. And, the rest runs nice too, when warmed up, even if it was hard to start.

Oil seals on the injectors the next target? :-)

And, on the wiring harness... is there any way to check that, other than looking for obvious pinch points, etc?
I can understand bad wiring accidentally starting to work better after a warmup, but not consistently, or when the block heater was plugged in, magically... you know what I mean? :-)

PS: When you said;
"After the injectors were replaced, they didn't need to be plugged in anymore. I'd bet your last dollar your going to need injectors."
I'll take the bet, but, when you replaced your injectors, I'll bet a dollar that you also replaced the seals as well?

Edited by - Andrew Bienhaus on 04/06/2013 5:26:13 PM
Go to Top of Page

Andrew Bienhaus
Active Member

23 Posts

Posted - 04/08/2013 :  06:30:45 AM  Show Profile  Visit Andrew Bienhaus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Saga update...

So weather turned out nice yesterday, so with the help of a friendly Ford Deisel mechanic, we opened the other side of the engine. (where the slow startup happens)

Low and behold, comparing even just visually the two sides, it would appear that the driver side got new injectors at some point, while the passenger side is likely still running on the originals.

We pulled all 4, and have taken them to be tested.
Seals look to be in fine shape (albeit tired out), but there is no sign of any bits in the fuel strainer, and the fuel filter is spotless.

Are there recommended sources for rebuilt injectors?
Go to Top of Page

wjbusguy
Active Member

United States
24 Posts

Posted - 04/08/2013 :  06:39:58 AM  Show Profile  Visit wjbusguy's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Is there something on 444's about the high pressure reservoir draining out overnight and leaving the system dry which means long cranking times to fill it back up so the injectors can work again?
Go to Top of Page

Fastback
Top Member

955 Posts

Posted - 04/08/2013 :  07:06:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wjbusguy

Is there something on 444's about the high pressure reservoir draining out overnight and leaving the system dry which means long cranking times to fill it back up so the injectors can work again?



I have had a worn low pressure pump that did not refill the HPOP resevoir fast enough after starting, engine would start and then die, checked and filled HPOP resevoir and bus would run fine till the next several hour shutdown situation where you would repeat the process.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
Go to Top of Page

Andrew Bienhaus
Active Member

23 Posts

Posted - 04/08/2013 :  07:58:45 AM  Show Profile  Visit Andrew Bienhaus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yeah, once this one starts, it goes, and keeps running, getting steadier as it warms up.
Go to Top of Page

Tb4020
Senior Member

United States
65 Posts

Posted - 04/08/2013 :  11:04:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Did you ohm out the glow plugs on that bank to make sure you didnt have a bad connector or harness on that side? You're dwelling on the seals, if the seals were bad there would be signs (fuel/oil or oil/in fuel) but since you have them out better get them checked. Might better change the valve cover gasket, glow plugs, and internal harness, don't knock the connectors off putting the valve cover back on!
Go to Top of Page

Andrew Bienhaus
Active Member

23 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2013 :  06:31:13 AM  Show Profile  Visit Andrew Bienhaus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yup, ohm'd them all, from the pins on the top of the harness. (so therefore checking for breaks in the harness as well. All are coming up the same. (excpet the aforementioned one that was then replaced, and now reads the same)

Got word on the 4 injectors we pulled, this morning from Taylor Diesel injection Service.
After prepping (cleaning, prior to testing) they all ran through the test bench fine, and there is a flow report waiting for me.
They've got new o-rings on them, and are waiting for pickup.

Their next suggestion, if I still have a problem, is a leak in the high pressure oil gallery.

My fuel filter is white and spotless.
The other bank was firing just perfectly.
I don't see oil in the coolant.
About the only place I could see it maybe going that I can't see it, is up past the upper injector o-ring, and into the general rocker area and down the oil return.

So, I guess, just put the injectors back in, and see how we do?

Open to other things to check while it's open... :)

Edited by - Andrew Bienhaus on 04/10/2013 06:33:46 AM
Go to Top of Page

Andrew Bienhaus
Active Member

23 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2013 :  04:23:26 AM  Show Profile  Visit Andrew Bienhaus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Two questions related to this;

1. Does anyone have the torque spec, for the injector hold down bolts?
(have tried, but not yet been successful in getting a shop manual)
2. Is there a pressure regulator in either side of the head that regulates the high pressure? Or is it simply the HPOP, pumping into a blind alley, that then is released by the injectors.
(ie; is there a return line somewhere from the high pressure gallery)

thanks,
andrew
Go to Top of Page

Fastback
Top Member

955 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2013 :  05:20:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
1. Fuel injector hold down clamp bolt; 105 lbf-in - (12 Nm)

2. The pressure regulator valve is mounted in the high pressure pump. No return line from the cylinder head pressure rail.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 04/11/2013 05:25:46 AM
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
 


School Bus Fleet Magazine Forums © 2013 School Bus Fleet Magazine Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.21 seconds. Snitz Forums 2000