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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/25/2012 :  7:53:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
2000 444e starts fine. "searches for idle" until i press the accelerator then it somewhat evens out. When put in gear it cuts out and billows blue smoke. Seems like I have always heard injector clatter and it has always been pretty sluggish. I have had it for about 10,000miles. It never dies. Filters are new, screen in fpr clean, 80,000 miles on it. I am researching other posts some are really good then they just stop with no "problem solved"?????

sob
Senior Member

USA
64 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2012 :  07:34:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Can you retrieve any codes ?
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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2012 :  6:13:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
going out to check now
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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2012 :  6:32:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
code 222 which is a brake switch circuit fault. I must say that it did start up until now but now it is colder than its ever been since I have had it. before this it wood start very easy. it has been nasty outside the last two days so I am arming myself to attack it tomorrow
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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2012 :  8:02:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes I know about those valve cover gaskets and pig tails burning out. Thats what happened to my 96 PSD. Will check tomorrow.
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sob
Senior Member

USA
64 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2012 :  05:28:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Going out on a limb here, but when was the last time the oil was changed ? These engines are viscosity sensitive. If the oil has broken down, they will do all kinds of weird things.

I have seen connections at the injectors themselves become partially unhooked, so to speak, but will usually code up.
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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2012 :  05:52:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If I can recall I changed it recently however, I have several pieces of machinery and other vehicles when I get busy I forget. I will change it anyway along with looking over all the connections.
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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2012 :  10:35:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
With basically no codes what wood be wrong? Just thinking. I am about to go out and dive into it. i had it going on prolly 4 cylinders. cranked on it for 30sec. no power cord to the block heater. taking one off my f350. if i get it going long enough i will check manifold temps.
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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2012 :  10:53:46 AM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
ok-no codes and the 1-4 cylinders are ice cold 25degrees (truck ran for about 10 sec) while cylinders 5-8 were 40 degrees
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Fastback
Top Member

985 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2012 :  11:09:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No idea why you would not have some codes but I would remove rocker cover from non firing side and check to see if connector inside is secure, its a common enough problem that International made a clip to help secure them. I used a small cable tie to secure the ones I had come loose.
You may also want to check/replace the glow plugs while you have the rocker cover off.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2012 :  11:27:00 AM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
1-4 cylinders are the two front cylinders giving two bad and two good on each side. Right?
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sob
Senior Member

USA
64 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2012 :  12:12:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One bank of this V-8 engine is odd and the other side is even numbered cylinders. 1357, 2468. Can't recall which bank is which. So you are saying, one bank of cylinders are not contributing ? Can't say as I have ever looked for a dead cylinder with a temp. gun, but will give it a try sometime.

The injector driver module supplies 115 + d.c. to each bank of injectors,1357,2468. So all the injectors on each bank share a power supply.For example, 1 and 7 share a power wire and 3 and 5 share a power wire, but all tie into each other before the IDM. The same can be said for the even cylinder side.
Guess I'm thinking, using a DVOM set for d.c. voltage, see if you have 115+,if you have the voltage you expect to see. Then do like Fastback said, do an exploratory surgery.


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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2012 :  4:04:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I read in other posts where guys have taken a temp laser gun, aimed it at the exhaust ports and that wood help determine which cylinders were not firing. when i did this the motor ran approx 10sec before shutting down. The front two on each bank (1234) were 25 degrees and 5678 were 40 degrees. This does not make sence at all to me like you said i figured it wood be just one bank. Maybe it did not run long enough??? Anyway I went in on the right side VC, inspected all wiring and pins and all looks good there. Cleaned the batts and hooked them back up. Cranked on it, ran codes and got 124. Is this a CPS or an ICP code?
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sob
Senior Member

USA
64 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2012 :  03:46:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A 124 code is Injection Control Pressure Signal out of range low. An out of range low code 124 will be set by the ECM if the signal voltage is less than .039 volts for more than 1 second. Code 124 may be set due to an open or short to ground on the signal circuit,a defective sensor or an open VREF circuit.

Try this, unhook your injection control pressure sensor. This should make the ECM see an infered default value. The ICP is on the left/drivers side,right there at the front. Start it and see what happens.
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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2012 :  05:37:12 AM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Had the same thing happen to my 96 7.3 ford, unpluged the ICP and it started but that was on my Ford. I tried it on my 444 last night and nothing, no start. I did find another post where a guy had the same codes, slightly different symtoms but it turned out to be a old fuel hose sucking air. It did not seem to be leaking he said. Looking at my HPOP there is a slight leak around one of the hoses that thread into it, so my thinking is the HPOP may be sucking air.? The fuel hoses are original so I will put that on my list of things to do. Raining outside sure wish I had a shop! SOB...MANY thanks for helping! This post is going to end with a problem solved but not yet.

Edited by - fatcord on 12/28/2012 05:45:46 AM
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sob
Senior Member

USA
64 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2012 :  05:48:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Have faith..... Do your homework, and keep it simple.Don't over think this issue and when all else fails go back to the basics. This has worked for me so far.

Oh, you keep posting and I will try to help. Would be a little easier if I could see it. But thats life.
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sob
Senior Member

USA
64 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2012 :  08:50:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Another left field thing. Is it full of engine oil ? A severely low oil level will cause problems.

One of those 4 quarts low and no start......
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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2012 :  4:09:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Had to replace the FPR on my 96 F350 today. Tomorrow I have a tree to pull off a house. I didnt mention that this engine is in forestry truck and that i run/operate a tree service. If anyone needs info on their trees maybe I can help, just dont cast me out for not having a bus-please. I am a certified Arborist.
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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2012 :  04:33:08 AM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Does the HPOP bring oil up from the crankcase? If it does not then it all makes sense how it gradually got sluggish, then it began running rough, then no start. Along with oil leaking from one of the hoses at the HPOP I have noticed an oil drip at the back of the engine, it has got to be a low HPOP.
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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2012 :  11:26:45 AM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I am quoting myself, I found a video on youtube where a guy said blown o-rings will cause ICP codes. Now the only code I am getting is 124 besides 222 which is a break switch circuit fault. I checked the UVC harness (all good). Still checking grounds and wires for shorts. My new question is "lets say it is the injector o-rings blown out next to the retainer with the gap in it?
quote:
Originally posted by fatcord

ok-no codes and the 1-4 cylinders are ice cold 25degrees (truck ran for about 10 sec) while cylinders 5-8 were 40 degrees

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sob
Senior Member

USA
64 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2012 :  06:18:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You are correct the HPOP does use engine oil. A leak at the back of the engine could be multiple things. 1. The HPOP gasket could and do leak. 2. You need to look to see if possibly the leak is from the dipstick tube adapter on the side of the block. A close inspection will tell the tale.

How big of a leak are we talking from the hoses at the HPOP, if it's big enough you would have a no start and this could also be your oil leak at the back of the engine.
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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2012 :  09:01:13 AM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I was mistaken the loose fitting was actually from the powersteering pump. I looked at the dipstick tube and it looks new.

Just talked to an International mechanic he said "take the covers off, pressure it up and see if you have any air coming up." I mentioned to him about the top two O-rings possibily being blown out just before he said this. But what is he talking about? What tools wood I use, How to hook them up, ect.

Edited by - fatcord on 12/31/2012 09:16:19 AM
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Fastback
Top Member

985 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2012 :  09:07:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The engine oil pump fills the HPOP resevoir. You can check the level in the HPOP resevoir by removing small pipe plug on top, i use a white zip tie for a dipstick.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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baptistbusman1
Senior Member

USA
70 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2012 :  2:16:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
if it were a bus in my fleet, i wouldn't go to far in my diagnoses. Start it up, let it run for a few minutes and then test the temp of the cylinders like you did before. Colder cylinders = bad injectors. I've done this test many, many times and it always works.

If you don't trust diagnosing this way, pull the injectors out and have them tested.

I'd definitely start first with testing the injectors before I wasted any time anywhere else.

I was formally Baptistbusman. However, I lost my password, and had not updated my email address.

Here is a link to my old posts. http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum/search.asp?mode=DoIt&MEMBER_ID=1846
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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2012 :  3:38:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I wish it wood start. You can hear it wanting to kick over. I cranked on it for 20 seconds, hit it with the laser temp gun, the left bank was about 100 the right side around 80. Now I am not sure these temps may be from the block heater. How far off wood the temps be?
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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 01/01/2013 :  12:24:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I pulled BOTH bank injectors. O-Rings look ok (not blown) However nozzles are clogged on almost all of them, 2 to 3 holes on each tip are shut or almost shut. Now let me ask this, wood starved injectors clatter or wood over fed injectors cause the clatter? I ask because when traveling down the road the I wood hear what sounded like lifters floating in a gaser. not to mention the lack in power.

Edited by - fatcord on 01/01/2013 2:17:22 PM
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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 01/01/2013 :  6:59:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
To answer my question "what wood throw code 124 which is icp sensor?" and its not a bad icp sensor. And ALL those out there with hard cold starts, no starts, engines that run till warm then die there is an article written up by Dave Armstrong with Swamps Diesel Performance. He explains components of the injectors and what will happen after normal wear. After reading the article more than half of problems people have had fall back on the injectors. So many posts that seem to be going (in the same direction as mine) end with no problem solved. I even went to international and talked to a tech. He said it was the injectors but could not explain why. I am not done, going to have my injectors rebuilt.
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baptistbusman1
Senior Member

USA
70 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2013 :  11:14:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One of the best things I've learned working on a 444e is not to let the engine out smart you. I used to sit and worry and test voltage and unhook sensors and pull codes and it would drive nuts. It's usually bad injectors if it's sluggish or cylinders are cold; if it dies it's the crank sensor; If there is oil in the valley, the hpop is bad; fuel in the valley lift pump is bad.

One of the easiest diagnoses I had was when a bus died out on the route, and oil was pouring off the engine. The back of the HPOP had actually blown off.

These engines are complex, but I agree with the International Tech's diagnoses, "it's the injectors" why? Well that's just what happens when the injectors go bad.

I was formally Baptistbusman. However, I lost my password, and had not updated my email address.

Here is a link to my old posts. http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum/search.asp?mode=DoIt&MEMBER_ID=1846
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Charles Andrews
New Member

2 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2013 :  11:21:03 AM  Show Profile  Visit Charles Andrews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have a 2011 thomas bus,when I push in the brake valve on the dash it leaks air in the brake interlock valve under the hood. What could be causing this or is it supposed to do that?
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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2013 :  11:45:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You really need to post a new topic to get good replies. there are some great people here.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Andrews

I have a 2011 thomas bus,when I push in the brake valve on the dash it leaks air in the brake interlock valve under the hood. What could be causing this or is it supposed to do that?

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Charles Andrews
New Member

2 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2013 :  11:57:36 AM  Show Profile  Visit Charles Andrews's Homepage  Reply with Quote
air brakes is my topic. I need to know if the brake valve interlock is supposed to leak air when you don"t push on the brake petal and push in on the air brake valve?
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C.HARDY
Advanced Member

354 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2013 :  8:19:34 PM  Show Profile  Click to see C.HARDY's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
A new set of injectors and you will think you have a new engine. Its impressive the difference a fresh set of injectors makes to a T444E.

"Hardybusman"
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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2013 :  07:30:23 AM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Charles to start a new topic you need to go to the proffessional garage forum, click on New Topic, then enter your topic then drop down and explain your problem. What you are doing here is refered to as "High Jacking". With respect.
quote:
Originally posted by C.HARDY

A new set of injectors and you will think you have a new engine. Its impressive the difference a fresh set of injectors makes to a T444E.

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fatcord
Active Member

22 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2013 :  07:36:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit fatcord's Homepage  Reply with Quote
OOPS wrong quote, right person addressed.
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Fastback
Top Member

985 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2013 :  07:54:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by C.HARDY

A new set of injectors and you will think you have a new engine. Its impressive the difference a fresh set of injectors makes to a T444E.



I have 7 T444Es, some of them over 200,000 miles, all of them have the original injectors and they all run fine. I need a shrugging smilie

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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C.HARDY
Advanced Member

354 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2013 :  6:38:09 PM  Show Profile  Click to see C.HARDY's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
You better knock on wood...ha ha Yeah but if you get one that smoking knocking or sluggish its like getting a new engine......lol. I think the one we replaced injectors had right at 230k. It wouldnt hardly run until it got warm and then it wasnt the best. Like night and day now and pushing 300k. T444E is actually a tough engine.

"Hardybusman"

Edited by - C.HARDY on 01/07/2013 6:38:46 PM
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