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Trailboss
Senior Member

United States
149 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2011 :  04:40:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Does anyone remove and clean the DPF filter in shop or do they have to be sent to the dealer for cleaning. I watched a video on cleaning a DPF filter. Looked as if they were useing a high pressure washing system to clean it with but I did not catch what engine it came off of.
The reason I'm asking is I have a bus with the Stop Alert Lamp on.
The last time this lamp came on on this bus we had the bus towed to the dealer and they cleaned the DPF.
Our bus is a 2011 IC CE with the Maxforce 7.

bluebirdvision
Top Member

USA
1006 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2011 :  05:16:58 AM  Show Profile  Click to see bluebirdvision's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Its under warranty, have IC do it, or risk voiding the warranty.

Shane Kirley
New York Bus Sales Delivery Driver. (I know its not much, but its a start)


Facebook Page: Blue Bird Corporation Fans
https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_212311114614&ap=1


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Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2011 :  06:12:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We have a DPF cleaning machine that we purchased using grant funding. That is what you need to properly clean a DPF. It must be heated/cooled very slowly and to a high heat. You may have saw your IH dealer cleaning a DOC...they blow those out with a long blow gun when they get surface plugged.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2356 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2011 :  09:19:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bassman

We have a DPF cleaning machine that we purchased using grant funding. That is what you need to properly clean a DPF. It must be heated/cooled very slowly and to a high heat. You may have saw your IH dealer cleaning a DOC...they blow those out with a long blow gun when they get surface plugged.



Out of curiocity, what did that cleaning machine cost?

Bryan
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Wolf0r
Top Member

USA
2179 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2011 :  09:52:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How much does it cost to have one cleaned?

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Trailboss
Senior Member

United States
149 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2011 :  10:51:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We are a Technology Center and our buses don't make short start and stop runs.The shortest route we run is 30 miles and the longest is 70 miles. I was told that we should not have any problems with the DPF because we only do highway driving. This is the second time for this bus and it only has 25,000 miles on it.This is the 2011 I posted earlyer. We also have an 08 that is in the shop also. Our BB's 04 and 06's are out there running up and down the road. I'm affrade to send the IC's on any out of town trips because we never know when one of those goofy lights will come on.
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eicsbus
Senior Member

Canada
126 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2011 :  11:54:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLRRHsdl2CY&feature=youtu.be

I.C. NO FUTURE


formally ,,,,wright11
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bcressey
Senior Member

USA
114 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2011 :  12:01:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit bcressey's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I guess I am having a hard time understanding why it needed to be cleaned at this stage unless there was an upstream issue? It it is a 2011 would it still be under warranty?
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Wolf0r
Top Member

USA
2179 Posts

Posted - 11/16/2011 :  06:48:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I saw a couple links to some Cummins Cab/Chassis "test" pipes online. $480 shipped with the DPF delete.

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 11/16/2011 :  08:02:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Our cleaning machine cost around $18,000.00. I do not recommend buying one if you are not using grant funding as no one really knows what the needs will be. Also, the flanged DPF the IH uses places the filter element about 12 or more inches from the heating element, and the small hole in the flange may reduce air flow reducing effectiveness. I could see IH requiring special techniques on this style down the road.

No 2011 vehicle should need cleaning yet. I bet you are having some type of problem with the control system. Ours have had trouble with the feed wires to the aftertreatment module (MaxxForce DT) on the 2010.

On a bus, the DPF is the manufacturers problem during the 5 year warranty. Also, I believe there is a 5 year Federal thing on emissions if your engine warranty is not 5 years.

Edited by - Bassman on 11/16/2011 08:04:01 AM
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2356 Posts

Posted - 11/16/2011 :  09:08:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No problems with the DPF on my propane bus. Oh yea, that's right it dosen't have one!

I still can't understand why we need to bang our heads like this. District and contractors alike don't have the money to be fooling with this garbage! I still think the EPA is the reason we are in this economoic slump. O well, time will tell I guess. That is if we survive all this.

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

998 Posts

Posted - 11/16/2011 :  12:24:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I will say we have two 2007 emissions MaxxForce 7s on the road every day. One has 16,000 miles the other 30,000, they don't build oil, never had or needed a parked regeneration and operate so seemlessly that outside of an occasional elevated exhaust temp light we would never know that they may have regenerated on their own.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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IBTMech
Top Member

USA
973 Posts

Posted - 11/16/2011 :  2:18:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit IBTMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We have 6 Maxxforce DTs, '07 and up and have no DPF issues yet. The oldest is pushing 70K.

If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years.
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Wolf0r
Top Member

USA
2179 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2011 :  12:35:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
West if we run the right fuel there would be no need for DPF, Urea or any of that crap. Henry Ford had the answer.

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson
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matts4290
Advanced Member

220 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2011 :  5:52:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit matts4290's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Trailboss

We are a Technology Center and our buses don't make short start and stop runs.The shortest route we run is 30 miles and the longest is 70 miles. I was told that we should not have any problems with the DPF because we only do highway driving. This is the second time for this bus and it only has 25,000 miles on it.This is the 2011 I posted earlyer. We also have an 08 that is in the shop also. Our BB's 04 and 06's are out there running up and down the road. I'm affrade to send the IC's on any out of town trips because we never know when one of those goofy lights will come on.



I always assumed it was best to send route buses with DPFs occasionally on trips to run them on the highway so they can get hot enough to do the passive regeneration.

We can't all be conventional!
http://www.youtube.com/user/matts4290
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Trailboss
Senior Member

United States
149 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2011 :  04:37:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Up date just got the 2008 IC back from the dealer. They replaced the High Pressure Oil Pump and the DOC (Diesel Oxidation Catalyst). I drove it back to our school which is 65 miles and no issues. I'm sending it out on a field trip today.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2356 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2011 :  05:44:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wolf0r

West if we run the right fuel there would be no need for DPF, Urea or any of that crap. Henry Ford had the answer.



Let me guess, Hemp? Your hung up on hemp "man". Get over it, the best fuel for a school bus application has to be propane. BB could dominate the school bus market again if they would make the propane bus cost the same as a diesel. Time will tell.

Bryan
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Wolf0r
Top Member

USA
2179 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2011 :  06:17:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Once I get a drum of oil I'll show them. Get over it? The government has been lying to us since 1937, I'll never get over that.

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2356 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2011 :  10:03:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Easy there Wolf, I'm just jerking your chain a little.

Bryan
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Wolf0r
Top Member

USA
2179 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2011 :  1:55:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

Easy there Wolf, I'm just jerking your chain a little.



Na, it's worth the debate plus it deserves attention. Maybe I should start a thread instead of jacking this one. LOL I just get frustrated when these ideas are swept under the rug. We don't have to settle for just one source of fuel. The propane is a great proven idea that is used today. It seems to be catching on. Veggie,hemp,soy,peanut and biodiesel mixtures have also been done but for some reason are not implemented yet. If you can youtube please take a look at what this highschool senior did. http://youtu.be/ZCoWrOobGOM

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Wolf0r
Top Member

USA
2179 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2011 :  08:48:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A question I have is if I run veggie oil in a DPF based engine will it give any problems if DOES NOT soot up the filter? Also if the emissions are low enough without the DPF could it be eliminated? If the DPF is deleted will fuel economy increase? I am constanly looking for people on the web who like to experiment and have the equipment.

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson

Edited by - Wolf0r on 11/29/2011 08:49:52 AM
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knuckleheadrider
Active Member

20 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2011 :  08:03:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

quote:
Originally posted by Bassman

We have a DPF cleaning machine that we purchased using grant funding. That is what you need to properly clean a DPF. It must be heated/cooled very slowly and to a high heat. You may have saw your IH dealer cleaning a DOC...they blow those out with a long blow gun when they get surface plugged.



Out of curiocity, what did that cleaning machine cost?



B. West .... we were fortunate enough to get ours through a grant. It's a Donaldson. Cost was about $26,000, but cost to us was $0.00 Timm ....

Turning wrenches on Big Yellow for 42 years .....
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2011 :  09:16:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just learned about one that's $65,000 but seems to be good. Go to fsxinc.com. First, you test it. Then, it has a pneumatic cycle, then you test it again. Then if necessary, it goes to the kiln for heating and then back to the pneumatic step. There's a video that you can watch the pneumatic part online. Several dealers in our general area have it. Not sure if it's the best but it looks good.
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Crown
Senior Member

72 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2011 :  4:53:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit Crown's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We've been running A LOT of DPF's for nearly 10 years. We have the Donaldson "cookers" and "puffers" and use them all the time. We had DPF's before the cleaning equipment was available and were blowing them out with air or a steam cleaner. We found out any cleaning with any liquid is a big no-no. Cleaning outside with shop air is illegal and defeats the purpose of using a DPF in the first place. Due mostly to age, we have many units starting to go bad now and CARB does not seem to be allowing any replacement/upgrade units. You can't just change fuels because you will be changing the operating temperature. For proper operation, durability, and a decent time span between cleanings the DPF needs to operate within the right temperature range. We will probably keep going with our transition to natural gas, which right about 50% of the bus fleet.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2356 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2011 :  7:22:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Crown

We've been running A LOT of DPF's for nearly 10 years. We have the Donaldson "cookers" and "puffers" and use them all the time. We had DPF's before the cleaning equipment was available and were blowing them out with air or a steam cleaner. We found out any cleaning with any liquid is a big no-no. Cleaning outside with shop air is illegal and defeats the purpose of using a DPF in the first place. Due mostly to age, we have many units starting to go bad now and CARB does not seem to be allowing any replacement/upgrade units. You can't just change fuels because you will be changing the operating temperature. For proper operation, durability, and a decent time span between cleanings the DPF needs to operate within the right temperature range. We will probably keep going with our transition to natural gas, which right about 50% of the bus fleet.



Cool! Tell us about natural gas! I understand it operates with very high pressures. What is your cost per mile on fuel? What kind of maintenance do you have beyond, say, a diesel engine?

Bryan
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Trailboss
Senior Member

United States
149 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2011 :  03:40:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Crown are you runing gasoline engines on natural gas or are they diesels runing on natural gas.
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Crown
Senior Member

72 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2011 :  09:00:57 AM  Show Profile  Visit Crown's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We are running N/G in John Deere and Cummins ISL G engines, both Diesel based, both 3600 PSI systems. The conversion is not based on fuel savings, so I don't have an overall cost per mile comparison. The fuel is much cheaper but we've spent a ton on gas compressing facilities and shop upgrades. The costs associated with 'going green' never cease to amaze. Maintenance was a nightmare at first, partially due to lack of training and partially from OEM growing pains. But we got it down pat on the J/D’s and are still learning about the Cummins. Overall, these buses are proving to be very reliable with many of the J/D’s over 100k and still going strong. Drivers like them and they have plenty of power.
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Trailboss
Senior Member

United States
149 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2011 :  12:20:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Does the N/g fire on compression or is there retro some sort of spark plug. We coverted some gasoline buses to N/G a few years back but they did not have any power, and the compresser station was over 200,000. We had to go to the gas company to fill our buses and it was a real hassel. Just did not work out for us so we went to diesel.
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Crown
Senior Member

72 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2011 :  6:44:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit Crown's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
"Does the N/g fire on compression or is there retro some sort of spark plug. We coverted some gasoline buses to N/G a few years back but they did not have any power, and the compresser station was over 200,000. We had to go to the gas company to fill our buses and it was a real hassel. Just did not work out for us so we went to diesel.


All the dedicated N/G engines that I've ever seen, including the old 427 Chevy conversions, are fired by spark plugs. The Diesel based engines usually have a standard looking spark plug where the fuel injector would normally be. The compression ratio is lower than a diesel but higher than a gasoline engine, as N/G has a high octane equivalent. This is where some extra power comes from. Unlike the 427's which had N/G flowing in through the air cleaner lid and naturally aspirated, the Diesel based units have the gas flowing into the engine intake and they are turbo-charged and aftercooled. The gas enters the intake under fairly low pressure because it mixes easily with air. The J/D and Cummins use an individual coil for each spark plug. Expensive iridium spark plugs are used because of the very lean air/fuel mixture.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2356 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2011 :  05:13:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What is the cost of these units compaired to a diesel? What do you have to do on maintenance, anything difffernt than a normal engine?

Bryan
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Crown
Senior Member

72 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2012 :  7:27:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit Crown's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
What is the cost of these units compaired to a diesel? What do you have to do on maintenance, anything difffernt than a normal engine?

Without including A/C, seat belts, and other bells and whistles, about $80k over a Diesel, for a transit school bus. Once you figure out what causes what, the amount of maintenance is comparible to Diesels. Things stay clean so the oil changes can be stretched out some. But you will have to replace spark plugs, plug wires, injectors, and O2 sensors from time to time. If you don't get a handle on what causes what, the maintenance can be quite high, and parts cost about 5 times what you would think they should. You can easily pay over $50 each for commercial duty iridium spark plugs. Tow bills will also add up. In an effort to get these systems out there, engine manufacturers are offering warranties that are the same as their Diesel cousins. If you are proactive, that period of time is enough to learn how to keep them running properly.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2356 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2012 :  05:26:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow 80k!!! How do you justify that? I guess I'm from the old school, if you can't pay cash for it and see a return on you money then you shouldn't buy it. I have been having trouble getting people to swollow only 10% of what your saying, on a propane bus. And the maintenance is no where near what your saying. Good luck.

Bryan
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slippert
Advanced Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2012 :  08:36:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Must be a misprint? I could see maybe 8k over, wasn't the propane bird 8-10k more than the diesel or was it that much less bwest? It has been so long since I've talked to a bird salesperson I can't remember, but at 80k wouldn't appear to be a good fit for a school or the average person! IMO.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2356 Posts

Posted - 01/05/2012 :  05:32:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, I would say they are depending on grants. (which is what got our country where we are now anyway) As for the propane, it is about 8k more than a diesel. The biggest obstical propane has is a much smaller hurtle than the CNG, that being fueling stations. A station for propane will more than likly be covered by the supplier where CNG is up in the hundreds of thousands with no help from a supplier. The other problem with them both is stations that have it available when your on a trip. There are many that have propane but they are more than likely a propane dealer that closes at 4 or 5. I'm not really sure about CNG but I don't recall seeing a CNG station lately. You just don't think about natural gas for anything beyond home heating and industrial use. The basic delivery system is there for both fuels but the mountains to climb are way different to get them into the main stream.

Boy, we got off topic here didn't we?

Bryan

Edited by - bwest on 01/05/2012 05:33:21 AM
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Trailboss
Senior Member

United States
149 Posts

Posted - 01/05/2012 :  10:48:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What is read and what is said are not always what we get when the bus gets to our shops. All these cost savings and emissions are not what they are cracked up to be. CNG cost is lack of power, lack of fuel station, and 2 or 3 3,000 psi missiles straped under your buses.
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browning_josh
Active Member

10 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2012 :  1:10:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit browning_josh's Homepage  Reply with Quote
we are looking to purchase a dpf thermal cleaner (oven) so far we are looking at the FSX and Baumot. we are also waiting for a few other quotes to come in. does anyone have any experience using thermal cleaners? are they all the same? which ones are better than others?
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