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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
 Posted - 09/20/2009 : 12:24:08 PM
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NewsChannel 5 Investigates:
School Buses Not Designed for Rollover Crashes
Sep 14, 2009
WTVF NEWSCHANNEL 5
Nashville, Tennessee
Monday's rollover bus accident in Winchester points to what experts say is a big safety problem for our children.
It's a problem they say could be fixed -- if there were seat belts on school buses.
The bus ran off the road on the way to school and flip over onto its side. About 25 children were transported to a local hospital.
But NewsChannel 5's chief investigative reporter, Phil Williams, has discovered that school buses were just not designed to protect against such rollovers.
School bus safety is built around a concept called compartmentalization. That's the padded seats behind your child and in front of your child -- which works great if the bus crashes into another vehicle.
But test video, obtained by NewsChannel 5 Investigates, shows exactly what happens in the case of a rollover. The test dummies are thrown around like clothes in a dryer.
And video from a real-life school bus accident shows just how violent a rollover crash can be.
Yet, federal safety regulators have been suggesting for a decade that buses could be made even safer.
"Current compartmentalization is incomplete in that it does not protect school bus passengers during lateral impacts with vehicles of large mass and in rollovers," the National Transportation Safety Board wrote in 1999.
Seat belt developer James Johnson said it's a serious problem.
"Rollovers are very common in accidents where children are hurt," Johnson first told NewsChannel 5 Investigates four years ago. "So while they may represent a small number of the accidents across the country, when they do happen, children can get hurt. That's when you'll find injuries and fatalities."
During the course of our investigation, we caught up with one private school where lap and shoulder belts are required to protect children in such accidents -- and parents were highly supportive.
But neither federal nor state governments have required them.
Skeptics say such serious crashes just don't occur often enough to be worth the money.
So it's left up to each school system to decide if they want them.
Click Here for source (There are some excellent videos at this website.)
Over seven hundred school districts, as of 1998, have seat belts installed on their school buses.
Five states - New York, New Jersey, Louisiana, Florida and California - require lap or three-point shoulder belts on their big school buses. Texas recently passed into law requiring seat belts installed on thier school buses by 2010.
Some school districts in states using belts but not mandated include Arizona, Colorado, Connecticut, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Massachusetts, Missouri, Mississippi, New Hampshire, Ohio, Oklahoma Vermont, and Wisconsin.
Free Photos, Ads, New School Year Bus Safety Template with Quiz - for use in schools and transportation departments to help promote school bus safety. Not for Resale use. Contact if release needed. You do not have to be a member to download these resources. Click Here for link
Policy Development Sheet: – School Bus Code of Conduct - Click Here for Link (post #2) |
Edited by - JK on 11/01/2009 08:23:51 AM
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2009 : 2:16:20 PM
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Irresponsible at best for them to title them "school buses not designed for rollover crashes". There are FMVSS in place to assure the bus' roof not collapse during a roll, that the windows stay in place to reduce chances of ejection, that interior joints do not seperate and introduce hazards to occupants, and that adequate, operative exits are provided post-crash.
More one-sided propaganda for seatbelts without consideration for the hazards they themselves present, courtesy media hype.
Please and thank you. |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2009 : 3:56:54 PM
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SEAT BELTS HISTORY (EXCERPTS)
The excuses asserted for no seat belts in school buses is as old as the arguments asserted against seat belts in cars in the 1950's.
The nation's largest auto maker at that time, General Motors, declined to offer belts even as optional equipment. General Motors' "safety engineer," concluded that "seat belts are not essential for safe driving."
GM's styling vice-president also was not impressed with seat belts, "This just encourages the nuts," and coined the term, "the seat-belt crazeu."
Finally, with its 1956 model cars, Ford Motor Co. took the lead in offering optional equipment safety belts, as part of an emphasis on vehicle safety in its marketing of that year's new automobiles. (~ PBS - NOVA)
I agree with the logic of the original engineers that included seat belts on the buses to meet their compartmentalization design requirements. The concept actually approved was one from the nation's school principals and politicians safety design, not from the engineers’ design.
School buses are built as cheaply as possible, costing around $100,000 as compared to $300,000 to $400,000 for a commercial bus. Yet, I would agree that school buses do seem to hold up well in some crashes.
Regardless, most school bus crashes involving lifelong injuries and death happen in side impact and rollovers, many as the bus slows to less than twenty-five MPH with horrific injuries from being thrown around inside the school bus and ejection from the bus the common causes.
A school bus in Nevada had the entire front part of the bus ripped away during a crash with another vehicle exposing the kids to ejection. Emergency personnel approaching the scene and maneuvering around books, bags and clothing strewn all over the road knew for sure that they were going to be dealing with dead kids, amputations and other horrid injuries.
Where were the kids?
Strapped safely in their seat belts. None died in that crash and injuries were minor.
Many - MANY - examples of lives saved happened with school buses equipped with simple lap belts and lower seat backs. The head, neck and spinal injuries and ejection are virtually exclusive attributes to students riding on beltless buses, not on seat belt equipped school buses where use is enforced.
Even though my effort is that kids sit as though they are already wearing a seat belt a few still fight it and not all schools are supportive of this effort.
I would welcome seat belts on our community's school buses, even lap belts. This safety device may not directly save many lives year-to-year but sure does calm the bus environment and helps reduce bus driver distractions where use is required and decent support is in place.
Many of us in this industry are ready for these safety devices, just waiting for school districts and industry leaders to catch up to the reality.
In the meantime do not crash your bus. The past excuses and arguments against belts on the buses is not prevailing in the courts.
Crash a school bus without belts on board, and that negligence results in altered lifetimes or death for some, expect the risk to pay out more or nearly as much from one crash as it would have cost to install belts on all the new production buses in your state. (jk)
"All you have to do is know one family that goes through the devastation of the loss of a child, you'll do everything in your power to ensure that all of the vehicles that your kids get on have seat belts." ~ Former National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) chairman Jim Hall quote in a Nov 21, 2006, NewsChannel 5 (Nashville, TN) story, 'Bus Crash Revives Debate Over Seat Belts.'
Free Photos, Ads, New School Year Bus Safety Template with Quiz - for use in schools and transportation departments to help promote school bus safety. Not for Resale use. Contact if release needed. You do not have to be a member to download these resources. Click Here for link
Policy Development Sheet: – School Bus Code of Conduct - Click Here for Link (Post #2) |
Edited by - JK on 11/01/2009 08:25:04 AM |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
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Mr. Dave
Senior Member
United States
120 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2009 : 8:30:24 PM
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I like seatbelts on busses, in fact I love them. Of course students must be required to use them. Seat on seat, back on the back. feet in front. Any rider turned around, or heaven forbid standing is off the bus period. Also the belts need to be three point and retracting self adjusting for safety sake. True this will only allow Two children per seat. After elementary school that all will fit anyway, but how often do districts stick three highschoolers to a seat. Yes I know this will cost money, Yes I know it will cost lots of money. How many of our problems are due to trying to do it on the cheep.
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Greasy side down |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 3:07:36 PM
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| Three-point seatbelts can be helpful not only in accidents but in terms of discipline issues -- as long as you get the support you need from administration. The bus company and/or school district need/s to stand behind the drivers 110% to fully enforce the rules that all students need to wear their seatbelts at all times. |
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PHW
Top Member
USA
1345 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 3:29:38 PM
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| With transportation programs already being cut back higher costs can mean less buses. Less buses would mean less students riding the bus. Students are safer riding the school bus than any other alternative. |
PHW
Child Check For Life
Chock Wheels For Life
Proud American For Life |
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Mr. Dave
Senior Member
United States
120 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2009 : 05:29:09 AM
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I’m sorry but it costs to run safe busses. The transportation dept. is asked to cut costs. The driver is asked to pay full attention to the road, but also to keep up with what is happening in the rear of the bus. Yes you can almost always get them safely to school on fewer dollars. When you don’t quite make it you obviously cut in the wrong spot. By the way your jury will be comprised of civilians who would not think of dirtying their hands driving a bus. Your piers will be excluded from the jury I guaranty. Those who screamed cut the cost will be nowhere to be found.
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2009 : 10:22:34 AM
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Full agreement with your posts, Mr. Dave.
The cost cutters run for cover when a bus crashes or any unnecessary death or life-altering injury occurs. When these same blame the bus driver they pretty much seal their own corporate wallet's fate - a rather interesting form of poetic justice.
When these cost-cutters are fully discovered in a federal court then that civilian jury you mentioned takes away bigger and bigger chunks of the so-called savings the cost cutters thought was successfully shortcut into their own bank accounts and on behalf of their stockholders in some cases. One crash can bankrupt a company.
These days without restraints for kids the best option is not to crash the bus. The savings erode away very quickly when that happens.
The very reason seat belts now have the industry and gov. agencies interested is not so much their safety value to children, but the safety value to their wallets. Anytime they are installed the advertising switches to kid's safety, not the much lower risk of litigation losses and the money saved when the devices are installed. Money, money, money leads the methods but not necessarily the advertising.
Many of the school districts not mandated but have seat belts installed and use required is not just looking at saving a life now and then. The other advantages of these devices is they continue to carry the theme forward concerning wearing a restraint in any vehicle a child rides, as well as greatly calms the bus, which in turn reduces bus driver distractions, and which in turn reduces crashes and kids/pedestrians run over by the bus.
I started out against seat belts on the big buses, because of the industries deceptive training concerning these safety devices, went on to confirm their stories of mayhem and despair were the devices installed.
Was shocked to discover that the industry and state agencies distortions concerning the device - brain injuries, shattered necks and broken or horrifically damaged backs - happened on buses not equipped with seat belts, precisely the opposite of the propaganda promoted in this industry.
Been both annoyed and annoying ever since when concerning theses safety devices on the school buses.
There is no loss in seating with lapbelts - three to a seat with lap belts is workable but two belts installed on one side of the aisle is preferred.
SafeGuard's FlexSeat™ keeps kids on the school bus, safely transporting three elementary school children or two high school kids on a standard 39-inch seat. With the FlexSeat, one seat fits all.
With SmartFrame, in a frontal crash, students are belted to the independent inner frame of the seat, which pivots forward to separate from the outer seatback. The padded outer frame remains in position to absorb the energy of any unbelted children from the seat behind.
They are expensive but manageable where wanted. If taken good care of can not find any rational reason to prevent these seat belt styles reinstalled on a new bus. (jk)
"All you have to do is know one family that goes through the devastation of the loss of a child, you'll do everything in your power to ensure that all of the vehicles that your kids get on have seat belts." ~ Former National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) chairman Jim Hall quote in a Nov 21, 2006, NewsChannel 5 (Nashville, TN) story, 'Bus Crash Revives Debate Over Seat Belts.'
Free Photos, Ads, New School Year Bus Safety Template with Quiz - for use in schools and transportation departments to help promote school bus safety. Not for Resale use. Contact if release needed. You do not have to be a member to download these resources. Click Here for link
Policy Development Sheet: – School Bus Code of Conduct - Click Here for Link (Post #2) |
Edited by - JK on 11/01/2009 08:28:58 AM |
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PHW
Top Member
USA
1345 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2009 : 1:10:04 PM
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| One district I had worked with cut bus transportation and a year later a student who normally would of rode the bus was killed on the way to school. Excluding the cost factor as a issue to be dealt with may not get the best result. |
PHW
Child Check For Life
Chock Wheels For Life
Proud American For Life |
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Dr. Ray Turner
Active Member
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2009 : 7:49:31 PM
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Type C and D buses are not designed for rollovers to keep their
passengers safe. My article first appeared in the Accident Reconstruction industry magazine Collision. I include the article here for the forum members consideration.
http://www.schoolbusaccidentreconstruction.com/issues.html#one
Dr. Ray Turner
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C2FAN
Senior Member
United States
114 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2009 : 3:35:41 PM
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| The problem I see with seat belts is are we willing to add them to prevent injury against one type of crash(roll-over) and sacrifice valuable seconds in many others scenarios by adding to evacuation time? Not to mention the added strain and liability issues put on drivers who will be required to make sure every kid on a 90 passenger school bus has their seat belt fastened. |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2009 : 12:00:53 AM
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Over 700 school districts (as of 1998) somehow overcame all the theoretical problems presented concerning seat belts in automobiles in the 1950's and now installed on thousand's of school buses. Had lap belts available on a few buses I've driven - would welcome this safety device and use required as a legitimate aid to helping keep kids safe. They are especially useful for k-8, and both buckling and unbuckling is a snap, keeps kids in place and less likely to end up unconscious under a pile of students. Try moving a bunch of injured kids off the bus after they've been tossed about unbuckled with injuries resulting. Most of these have to be kept in place until help arrives. What do you do about the unprotected child ejected with the upper body crushed under the bus? The livelong injuries happening in crashes on buses without this safety device is threatening to bankrupt this industry. No belts? DO NOT CRASH THE BUS is your only option. (jk)
Updated 10/21/2009 - Death at the school bus stop Booklet (pdf) (Thread Post #4)
Free Photos, Ads, New School Year Bus Safety Template with Quiz - for use in schools and transportation departments to help promote school bus safety. Not for Resale use. Contact if release needed. You do not have to be a member to download these resources. Click Here for link |
Edited by - JK on 10/27/2009 12:03:06 AM |
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Bad-Air
New Member
United States
1 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 05:05:35 AM
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JK,
Could you please post another link to this site, as I can not get this one to work? Thanks..
Policy Development Sheet: – School Bus Code of Conduct - Click Here for Link |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2009 : 08:45:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bad-Air
JK,
Could you please post another link to this site, as I can not get this one to work? Thanks..
Policy Development Sheet: – School Bus Code of Conduct - Click Here for Link
Geocities has ended operations. Catching up with relinking. A new link is now posted in the thread: Free School Bus Safety Resources (Post #2)
I've had to consolidate the resources to one thread since some of the links change when a file is updated. It is also convenient for users to have all the resources links available in one thread.
Hope this helps and thank you for helping keep kids safe. (jk)
Policy Development Sheet: School Bus Code of Conduct - Click Here for Link (Post #2) |
Edited by - JK on 11/01/2009 08:46:35 AM |
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tneal777
New Member
1 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2009 : 7:32:40 PM
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Take no disrespect given for this because there is no intended, but I am a master certified technician with computer analysis and crash review. You make some well stated facts and I do applaud your knowledge but you have made some inconsistencies also. If seat belts are included in school buses it is a proven fact that there will be 27 % less injuries sustained due to crashes 12% due to roll over crashes. School buses are designed for a higher impact rate than an average automobile but they are not invincible either. Thank You,
Tommy W. Neal JR quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
Irresponsible at best for them to title them "school buses not designed for rollover crashes". There are FMVSS in place to assure the bus' roof not collapse during a roll, that the windows stay in place to reduce chances of ejection, that interior joints do not seperate and introduce hazards to occupants, and that adequate, operative exits are provided post-crash.
More one-sided propaganda for seatbelts without consideration for the hazards they themselves present, courtesy media hype.
Please and thank you.
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School Buses Not Designed for Rollover Crashes
