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lilryan
Active Member
United States
10 Posts |
 Posted - 04/17/2008 : 6:07:58 PM
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so heres what i want. i will be doin all highway so i need something thats comfortable cruisin at 65mph. i am willin to change the gear in the rearend so i just need the guts up front to get the job done. is the cummins the same that is in the dodge ram. i know you can turn those up to run pretty good. canu modify the dt's as easy as the cummins. which engine would be best for me. i will be def. getting the 643allison to go along with it.
thanks
ryan |
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busgeek++
Advanced Member
United States
253 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2008 : 7:11:37 PM
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| The Cummins was used (in stock form, mostly) in the Dodge, the DTs are great engines, and are wet-sleeve, the Cummins is not. The DTs will run forever if cared for, and can definitely take some modding, especially the 466. The DT360 turns 2700rpm stock, and will be happy at about 3000 forever. The 466 turns 2400-2600 stock, depending on year/horsepower. They will be happy to about 2700-2800 with mods. |
Buses are not a way of life, they are life |
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whe8913
Advanced Member
United States
301 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2008 : 7:12:52 PM
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| Boy- IMO to compare those three engines is like comparing apples to apples. Each of them has their advantages. The DT 360 is one tough running engine, as is the DT 466. The advantages to those are that they are both wetsleeve engines. The DT 466 has been around for 30+ years, so it's well proven. I've driven a whole lot more DT engines than Cummins, but our church just recently acquired two buses with the 5.9 Cummins and they seem to run very well too. So, I'm still gonna recommend the DT 466 over those three, simply because it's well-proven and wetsleeve. The DT 360 hasn't been in production since 1994 or so, so parts could be tough to get if needed. |
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lilryan
Active Member
United States
10 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2008 : 7:55:13 PM
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| my friend has a 91 international with a 245hp dt466. i have never seen another one that big. could i make a lower hp dt run that good. what years should i look for. what is the differences between the different hp engines. i was wanting to stay all mechanical so pre 97 is what i was thinkin. i know i need to get the "a" since it is aftercooled. |
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lilryan
Active Member
United States
10 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2008 : 8:04:20 PM
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| so i did some reading on wikipedia and it said pre 94 for mechanical fuel injection. is that right. |
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lilryan
Active Member
United States
10 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2008 : 8:16:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by busgeek++
The Cummins was used (in stock form, mostly) in the Dodge, the DTs are great engines, and are wet-sleeve, the Cummins is not. The DTs will run forever if cared for, and can definitely take some modding, especially the 466. The DT360 turns 2700rpm stock, and will be happy at about 3000 forever. The 466 turns 2400-2600 stock, depending on year/horsepower. They will be happy to about 2700-2800 with mods.
is there a link or a list of the mods you can do to the dt's. i have done tons of searches and didnt come across anything. |
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busgeek++
Advanced Member
United States
253 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 07:27:45 AM
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DT466 engines had mechanical injection through the 1995 model year. After this, they are electronic. A good site for mods on these is: http://www.freewebs.com/nevrenufhp/index.htm
In terms of power, they went up to 250hp or 270hp as mechanical injection (less for pre-1990 IIRC), the electronic ones (not sure when this rating was added) go up to 300hp. The DT360 went up to 210hp. |
Buses are not a way of life, they are life |
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lilryan
Active Member
United States
10 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 6:39:56 PM
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| so about the only thing to do is turn the fuel up. i was gonna add a better air cleaner and better exhaust. |
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busgeek++
Advanced Member
United States
253 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 8:04:02 PM
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| Better air intake and exhaust would help the turbo spool up sooner, so it may still make some difference, but not a ton. |
Buses are not a way of life, they are life |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 3:47:07 PM
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The aneroid puff limiter on the DTs is pretty hard to mess with other than cutting it off.
I liked the Mack/Bosch puff limiter arrangement where you could frig with the shims to get a quicker boost. Careful adjustment would not increase the black smoke too much. It was easy to spot those who disabled it completely by the telltale belch of black smoke. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2008 : 08:48:49 AM
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I think the DTs are the better engines hands down. I think International made a mistake cutting the 360 engine, but I know a business has to do what it needs to survive. Cummins made a decently tough engine, but they are prone to fuel injection pump problems as they age (not speaking of just the VP44s). Both our Cummins B and C engines from the earlier to mid 90s have been riddled with injection pump problems. I'd get a 466 if you want all out power and durability.
One a side note, I didn't know the 360 made it to 210 hp. I've seen a 190TF (190 hp high torque), but I've never seen a 210 version. My engine service/diagnostic/fuel injection pump manuals do not mention anything higher than a 190 either. Does anybody have the torque specs for the 210? |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2008 : 09:05:40 AM
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I ran three B-series Cummins and one C-Series. The only thing I found them good for were
A)leaking oil
B)rattling themselves apart |
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busgeek++
Advanced Member
United States
253 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2008 : 6:44:54 PM
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| Don't know the torque specs for the 210, they were rare, but they existed. Would love to put one in a Jeep... |
Buses are not a way of life, they are life |
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nevrenufhp
Active Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 7:36:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lilryan
so i did some reading on wikipedia and it said pre 94 for mechanical fuel injection. is that right.
They were mechanical(according to the books) until 95. I've talked with one guy that has one in a 97, so you really gotta look. The optimal years are 93-95, they have almost the same injector pump as the 94-98 Dodge/Cummins. Dont shy away from an 84-92 though. There's also extrude honed and EDM injectors available thanks to the tractor pulling world. They can make you just about anything you want. A friend of mine is putting a 466 in his 74 F250, and his injectors were $120 each(if I'm remembering right), and supposed to push 450hp with his setup. According to a low buck sled puller I chatted with, a 466 can spin to 4500 with the stock bottom end, if that tells you anything about their ability.
A couple videos of my work truck with a modded DTA466(all free mods too):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StdGBMlR3Zg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbw7J3zXA4E |
The work truck: 1994 IH 4900, DTA466 with a few mods, MT653, Voith retarder.
Project:99 F250 SD DT466/AT545 swap
commuter:67 F100, 300, 4spd
my Fuel rate site:
http://www.freewebs.com/nevrenufhp/index.htm |
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CISDbusman
Advanced Member
305 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 10:20:41 AM
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Bringing this back from the dead.
I just this weekend at a bus auction seen my first DTA360. My question is how does it compare weight, and size wise to the Cummins 5.9? Is the 360 block the same as the 466? Hope not as it will end up being a tad big for my plans.
I know the displacement is spot on between the two (thanks to google for the conversion) and the DT has wet sleeves which is a plus, but what else am I missing.
I have never been a fan of anything Cummins makes. I lost enought blood and skin on the L10's,triple nickels,955's, and the 855's that I care very little for any of em now. I think I have IH in my blood anyway as my family has made a living with em since their inception nearly. :-)
I want to build a tow rig/light haul truck and when I seen the DT360 I thought that maybe I had found an alternative to the 5.9 that EVERYONE is swapping in their trucks.
What say the masses?? Thanks!!! |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 10:33:58 AM
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| The DT360 block is shorter than the DT466, enough so as to require differant rear engine mount to frame brackets and also a front crossmember mounted farther back. |
Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
Edited by - origcharger on 05/06/2009 10:34:44 AM |
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nevrenufhp
Active Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 8:17:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CISDbusman
Bringing this back from the dead.
I just this weekend at a bus auction seen my first DTA360. My question is how does it compare weight, and size wise to the Cummins 5.9? Is the 360 block the same as the 466? Hope not as it will end up being a tad big for my plans.
I know the displacement is spot on between the two (thanks to google for the conversion) and the DT has wet sleeves which is a plus, but what else am I missing.
I have never been a fan of anything Cummins makes. I lost enought blood and skin on the L10's,triple nickels,955's, and the 855's that I care very little for any of em now. I think I have IH in my blood anyway as my family has made a living with em since their inception nearly. :-)
I want to build a tow rig/light haul truck and when I seen the DT360 I thought that maybe I had found an alternative to the 5.9 that EVERYONE is swapping in their trucks.
What say the masses?? Thanks!!!
I totally agree with the Cummins swaps!
The 360 is about 1200 pounds(give or take), and it would fit a pickup much easier than a DT466 would(I already tried a 466 Super Duty). The 360 is a tough little guy, and can handle more than the Cummins 6BT. Last I heard, the DT360 made 1000+hp long before a 6BT did. I've been encouraging 360 swaps for a few years now. Demand for them is low, since most guys swap them out for a DT466 in the IH trucks. I've seen them go for as low as $1000, and a few for $1500. Spinning to 4500 wont kill it either.
The only other one I suggest is for the older Fords, and that's the New Holland 6.6 mainly due to the 'Ford' script on the valve cover. Then again, the Perkins 354 is pretty good too. |
The work truck: 1994 IH 4900, DTA466 with a few mods, MT653, Voith retarder.
Project:99 F250 SD DT466/AT545 swap
commuter:67 F100, 300, 4spd
my Fuel rate site:
http://www.freewebs.com/nevrenufhp/index.htm |
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YellowBox
Advanced Member
Puerto Rico (USA)
254 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 5:35:17 PM
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WELL THE INTERNATIONAL DT ENGINE SERIES (DT360 /DT466...EVER HEARD OF DT408??) IS A STRONG AND PROVEN ENGINE. BEING WET-SLEEVE MEANS THAT THEY ARE MORE SIMPLER AND CHEAP TO REBUILD. BUT THIS CAN BE ONE OF ITS WEAKNESS. BE VERY, VERY STRICT WITH WHAT YOU USE OR POUR ON THAT RADIATOR (NO WATER PLEASE!!! HOW CAN I TELL THIS TO MY GUYS????) USE THE PROPER COOLANT OR ANTIFREEZE THAT IS APROPIATE FOR YOUR REGION.
I WONDER WHY PEOPLE HERE USE ANTIFREEZE (NO FREEZING TEMPERATURES HERE) HOW CAN I TELL THEM "USE COOLANT"....
THOSE MISTAKES MADE ME REPAIR ONE DT466 ABOUT 2 TIMES IN LESS THAN A YEAR. CARELESS GUYS THAT POUR PLAIN WATER ONTO THE RADIATOR, DID NOT CHECK FOR TEMPERATURE..AND ASS YOU GUESS....A BLOWN ENGINE. CYLINDER SLEEVES CAVITATE AND OIL AND WATER WERE MIXED.
SO THEY ARE GOOD ENGINES....BUT ASS FAR AS GOOD THEY ARE...NOT MY FAVORITE ONES.
DEALING WITH A LOT OF FORDS HERE I WORKED ON CUMMINS 5.9 ENGINES TOO.IF WELL MANTAINED THEY ARE GOOD, BUT ALSO HAVE THEIR ISSUES.MUCH RATTLE, PROBLEMS WITH THE INYECTION PUMPS. TEMPERATURE RISE TO THE ROOF!!!!
SO....
WELL GO WITH INTERNATIONAL DT360 /DT466 (IS THAT DT408 RAL????)
THEN WHEN WORKING WITH CATERPILLAR ENGINES, WELL THAT IS ANOTHER CHAPTER OF THE BOOK.
PROPER MANTAINANCE AND USE- THE KEY WORDS TO A RELIABLE ENGINE.
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nevrenufhp
Active Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 7:26:15 PM
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| OK, we get the idea...no need to YELL at us. |
The work truck: 1994 IH 4900, DTA466 with a few mods, MT653, Voith retarder.
Project:99 F250 SD DT466/AT545 swap
commuter:67 F100, 300, 4spd
my Fuel rate site:
http://www.freewebs.com/nevrenufhp/index.htm |
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Spencer
Senior Member
United States
188 Posts |
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CISDbusman
Advanced Member
305 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 10:32:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by YellowBox
WELL THE INTERNATIONAL DT ENGINE SERIES (DT360 /DT466...EVER HEARD OF DT408??) IS A STRONG AND PROVEN ENGINE. BEING WET-SLEEVE MEANS THAT THEY ARE MORE SIMPLER AND CHEAP TO REBUILD. BUT THIS CAN BE ONE OF ITS WEAKNESS. BE VERY, VERY STRICT WITH WHAT YOU USE OR POUR ON THAT RADIATOR (NO WATER PLEASE!!! HOW CAN I TELL THIS TO MY GUYS????) USE THE PROPER COOLANT OR ANTIFREEZE THAT IS APROPIATE FOR YOUR REGION.
I WONDER WHY PEOPLE HERE USE ANTIFREEZE (NO FREEZING TEMPERATURES HERE) HOW CAN I TELL THEM "USE COOLANT"....
THOSE MISTAKES MADE ME REPAIR ONE DT466 ABOUT 2 TIMES IN LESS THAN A YEAR. CARELESS GUYS THAT POUR PLAIN WATER ONTO THE RADIATOR, DID NOT CHECK FOR TEMPERATURE..AND ASS YOU GUESS....A BLOWN ENGINE. CYLINDER SLEEVES CAVITATE AND OIL AND WATER WERE MIXED.
SO THEY ARE GOOD ENGINES....BUT ASS FAR AS GOOD THEY ARE...NOT MY FAVORITE ONES.
DEALING WITH A LOT OF FORDS HERE I WORKED ON CUMMINS 5.9 ENGINES TOO.IF WELL MANTAINED THEY ARE GOOD, BUT ALSO HAVE THEIR ISSUES.MUCH RATTLE, PROBLEMS WITH THE INYECTION PUMPS. TEMPERATURE RISE TO THE ROOF!!!!
SO....
WELL GO WITH INTERNATIONAL DT360 /DT466 (IS THAT DT408 RAL????)
THEN WHEN WORKING WITH CATERPILLAR ENGINES, WELL THAT IS ANOTHER CHAPTER OF THE BOOK.
PROPER MANTAINANCE AND USE- THE KEY WORDS TO A RELIABLE ENGINE.
I have never heard of a 408, but have spun a many wrench on a 414. I hate farm tractors!!
So are all the 4** series blocks the same? Is there a sibling to the 360 like in the 400 series?
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CISDbusman
Advanced Member
305 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 10:35:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Spencer
I love the DT466E its amazing.
X 30 bazillion, but its a tad much for my project. If I had a 2 ton truck it would be the engine of choice. Guess I could scrap the 1 ton idea and use my 51 L180 sleeper cab IH with the 466. |
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YellowBox
Advanced Member
Puerto Rico (USA)
254 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2009 : 1:29:08 PM
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The Navistar DT engine family is a line of mid-range inline-6 diesel engines. With horsepower ratings ranging from 210 to 350 hp (260 kW), the Navistar DT engines are used primarily in medium-duty truck and bus applications, although some versions have been developed for heavy-duty regional-haul and severe-service applications. Prior to 1986 Navistar International, then known as International Harvester Company, used the DT engine in farm and construction equipment.
Design.
The DT engines are of a wet-sleeve design. This means that the cylinder wall (sleeve) is a separately machined part that fits into the cylinder bores cast into the engine block. The cylinder sleeve is in contact with the engine coolant, hence the "wet"-sleeve.
Navistar claims that the wet-sleeve design enhances durability because the consistent wall thickness of the sleeve allows for consistent heat transfer, ensuring the cylinders stay round during thermal expansion. Additionally, they state that the hardened cylinder sleeve is more durable and wear resistant than a softer, cast-in wall. Also, the replaceable cylinder sleeves protect the block from damage (e.g. in case of foreign objects entering the cylinder) and can easily be replaced, which Navistar claims enables simpler restoration to original specifications. The wet-sleeve design also allows the engine to be rebuilt easily to factory specifications, sometimes without even removing the engine from the vehicle.
This design is opposed to parent bore engines, where the cylinder walls are machined out of the bores cast into the block. International states that the uneven thickness of the cylinder walls causes the cylinders to become out of round during thermal expansion, increasing wear. Also, damage to the cylinder wall requires more extensive work to repair.
From 1984 until late 1995, the DT engines used a Bosch pump-line-nozzle (PLN) mechanical direct fuel injection system. 1984 through 1992 DTs used a Bosch MW style pump, while the 1993-1995s used a Bosch P style pump, and starting what was called New Generation Diesel engine design, which is still the same basic block design. Mechanical injection was still utilized in trucks up into the 1997 year, but this is rare. In 1994, due to tightening emissions regulations, the engines were redesigned to use electronically-controlled unit direct fuel injection. From 1994 to 2004, the engines used HEUI (Hydraulically-actuated Electronically-controlled Unit Injection) injectors, co-developed by Navistar and Caterpillar. From 2004 to the present, the engines use International's Electro-Hydraulic Generation Two (G2) unit injectors.
Historical variants.
The DT engine has also historically been available in the following variants; these have all been discontinued.
530E (8.7L); available in standard and high-torque configurations. Replaced in 2004 by DT/HT 570, which were replaced in 2007 by the MaxxForce 9 and 10, respectively. Used electro-hydraulic unit injection.
DT 466E: Introduced in 1994, added electronic control to previous, non-electronic DT 466, superseded by model year 2005-and-later DT 466 with variable geometry turbocharger (see below). Also changed over from mechanical fuel injection to electro-hydraulic unit injection.
DT 408 (6.7L): a smaller version of the DT family. Used mechanical fuel injection. DT 360 (5.9L): a still-smaller variant. Also used mechanical injection.
DTA 360: Same as above, but with an aftercooler, the "A" stands for "aftercooled".
DTA 466: Same as earlier mechanical-injection DT 466, but with an aftercooler.
Turbo 400 engine: version used in IH farm and construction equipment, with many different sizes.
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CISDbusman
Advanced Member
305 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 05:05:24 AM
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Wonderful post ^^!!
Got anymore specs for the DTA 360?? :-)
Thanks!! |
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 06:29:44 AM
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| Excellent info! The DT408 was a mostly 1994 only engine, with few excepetions. Also the DT466 was available until 1996 with mechanical injection. DT466E after that, electronic only. |
Joe
Land of the Free, because of the Brave! |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2009 : 6:21:05 PM
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We had two 1977, a 1979 and a 1981 dump trucks with a 210 HP DT 466 w/ rotary pump. Good engine, crappy injector pump.
Our first bus with a DT466 was a 1985 185 HP w/ inline pump. A solid engine. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2009 : 1:15:34 PM
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| Were those rotaries Standyne (spelling?) pumps? Had three of them '78, '80 and '81 all were terrible with cold, and the first two were dogs, but WHOA that '81 hauled! |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2009 : 5:50:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
Were those rotaries Standyne (spelling?) pumps? Had three of them '78, '80 and '81 all were terrible with cold, and the first two were dogs, but WHOA that '81 hauled!
Actually, I don't remember. I think they were Bosch.
We have one left in an '81 CO1890 fire truck. I'll check next time it's in the shop. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
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nevrenufhp
Active Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 07:29:27 AM
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| Those rotaty pumps were a Bosch "Model 100" |
The work truck: 1994 IH 4900, DTA466 with a few mods, MT653, Voith retarder.
Project:99 F250 SD DT466/AT545 swap
commuter:67 F100, 300, 4spd
my Fuel rate site:
http://www.freewebs.com/nevrenufhp/index.htm |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 11:55:29 AM
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| Thanks for the info guys! |
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78fordwayne
Top Member
USA
2868 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 5:49:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wagonmaster
Excellent info! The DT408 was a mostly 1994 only engine, with few excepetions. Also the DT466 was available until 1996 with mechanical injection. DT466E after that, electronic only.
DT408s were built in 1994 ,1995 ,1996.
1997 DT466 no longer had mechanical injection. |
Robert B.
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Edited by - 78fordwayne on 05/17/2009 5:50:15 PM |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 8:10:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by 78fordwayne
quote:
Originally posted by wagonmaster
Excellent info! The DT408 was a mostly 1994 only engine, with few excepetions. Also the DT466 was available until 1996 with mechanical injection. DT466E after that, electronic only.
DT408s were built in 1994 ,1995 ,1996.
1997 DT466 no longer had mechanical injection.
Are you sure about those DT408 build years?
We ordered a 1994 International with a DT408 but before it got built we were told the DT408 had been discontinued and it ended up coming with a DT466. |
Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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78fordwayne
Top Member
USA
2868 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 02:36:51 AM
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Yes I am sure.
Maybe they thought you were asking for a DT360 |
Edited by - 78fordwayne on 05/18/2009 02:40:42 AM |
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 06:11:35 AM
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| The DT408 wasn't produced anywhere in 1996, but could have been in 1995, mostly from leftover stack, as the engine plant was done with them in late '94 I believe. At least that's what they told me when I was there at the time. All 1997 units produced that year and beyond were the Electronic DT466E version. |
Joe
Land of the Free, because of the Brave! |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 06:20:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by 78fordwayne
Yes I am sure.
Maybe they thought you were asking for a DT360
No, the DT 408 replaced the discontinued DT360. We ordered a DT408, recieved chassis salesmans apologies for not being able to supply the DT408 and recieved a DT466.
International parts book only shows DT408 for 1994 and 1994.5 model year. |
Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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78fordwayne
Top Member
USA
2868 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 08:02:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by origcharger
quote:
Originally posted by 78fordwayne
Yes I am sure.
Maybe they thought you were asking for a DT360
No, the DT 408 replaced the discontinued DT360. We ordered a DT408, recieved chassis salesmans apologies for not being able to supply the DT408 and recieved a DT466.
International parts book only shows DT408 for 1994 and 1994.5 model year.
Well they must have had a butt load of over stock. I have seen many 96s with DT408s in them |
Edited by - 78fordwayne on 05/18/2009 08:08:22 AM |
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Topic |
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cummins vs. dt360/dt466
