Read about the Great Fleets Across America
Subscribe

School Bus Fleet Magazine Forums
School Bus Fleet Magazine Forums
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ
 All Forums
 Professional Garage
 Enter Forum: Professional Garage
 Maxxforce DT Emissions Fault light/Fuel in Oil
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
235 Posts

Posted - 09/22/2011 :  03:22:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We are still making oil in out M7'S. now more than ever. from 2 to 6 qts overfull. Had 1 12 qts over last week. Funny thing is International acts like we are the only ones with this problem.....

Bruce
Go to Top of Page

Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 09/22/2011 :  04:17:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm still dealing with this is a big way too. I have had multiple 07 emissions buses into IH for follow up work. I have one that has built 3 inches on the stick since the first of September. Another unit is back at the dealership for the fourth attempt to fix it since April. Believe me, it is happening at increased frequncies and it is happening to truck fleets in this area as well now. I have also lodged my complaint that there is (still) no iKnow bulletins out there (except one for a reflash)to help the fleets or dealers to diagnose and correct this situation. You can see the type of responses you get from tech central when cases are filed. They are inconsistent and often incoherent stabs in the dark. I was promised by one high ranking IH individual that they were going to be more "proactive" in their response to problems in the wake of the VT365 debacle which continues until this day. I advised him to demonstrate that proactive approach in the case of the MaxxForce oil building issue (which he said at the time that he hadn't heard of). That was now 2 years ago in front of at least 40 fleet representatives and aside from the pilot reprogramming effort that I was a part of, that proactive approach has not been demonstrated in the case of oil building.
Let me summarize what I have recently observed:
-Every unit experiencing this issue has been an 07 emissions unit with in-cyl dosing. My 2010 emissions MaxxForce DT's have not demonstrated any symptoms. (Note: 2010 emissions MaxxForce7 still uses in cyl dosing while the DT was changed).

-The higher the overall mileage is on a unit (we have up to 140,000), the greater the chance that it will experience the problem.

-The higher the daily run mileage is, the greater the chance of experiencing the problem.

-Contrary to conventional logic, the higher the average speed of the unit, the higher the chance it will develop the issue. Buses on shorter, lower speed runs are experiencing this issue less, while buses that run higher speeds for longer periods of time (which would seemingly require less regens and would experience greater periods of time conducive to regening) experience the problem with greater frequency.

-This seems to be further confirmed by the fact that several buses that have come off of our longer non-public runs and placed on shorter in-county runs and were experiencing the higher dilution rates are experiencing less (but still some) dilution issues on the shorter runs.

As a side note: Does any of you know why the operators manual for a 2010 emissions MaxxForce 7 recommends more frequent oil changes if the average highway speed of the vehicle is higher? This is backwards from the old days. Does this have to do with in cyl dosing? (I asked this question in two emails to IH but have never received a response) We are taking delivery on a 2010 emissions 7 in a truck soon.

We have also been taking steps to try to diagnose this issue on our own. The interesting thing we did was to replace (yes, with a new unit) the DOC and DPF on one bus that was a serious and consistent oil builder. The oil building instantly stopped!!! One truck fleet in our area did the same with a consistent oil builder - they replaced the DPF and blew out the DOC (to get rid of the surface plugging). In both instances, the oil bulding instantly stopped. I also tried cleaning (we have a machine) several DPF's and blowing out their DOC's. This did not stop the oil building. I had DPF's cleaned both in house and from an outside vendor, and those buses didn't stop building oil. (Sambrutay, I would love to see you replace one of your DPF's with a new unit and blow out (really good) your DOC to see if it stops).

This is a tough problem to diagnose and fix, but I firmly believe that one factor in the problem is exhaust back pressure causing fuel to be washed past the rings during regen.
If anyone has any wisdom to share on the topic, I would love to hear it!!!




Go to Top of Page

Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2011 :  04:09:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anyone have any progress reports on this oil building/smoking issue - successful or unsuccessful? In either the Maxxforce 7 or the MaxxForce DT? Thanks
Go to Top of Page

IBTMech
Top Member

USA
973 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2011 :  6:13:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit IBTMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I've been monotoring all of our Maxxforce DTs and have found nothing out of range.
(fingers crossed}

If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years.
Go to Top of Page

Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2011 :  08:32:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Are 07 emissions engines? What mileage on them so far? Do they have short runs or runs with a lot of high speed operation? Thanks for the data! It helps.
Go to Top of Page

dfreese
New Member

1 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2013 :  07:10:33 AM  Show Profile  Visit dfreese's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The 08 maxforce DT fires the injectors on the exhaust stroke.If your exhaust filter is partially restricted the back psi increases causing fuel to be pasted thru the cylinders,causing oil contamination.Have your filter cleaned!!
Go to Top of Page

Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2013 :  08:29:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That is exactly what is going on during regen!
Go to Top of Page

slippert
Advanced Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 04/08/2013 :  08:35:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So I have been reading the posts on here similar to this one and also having some of the same experiences as your fleets are...the last one of my 07 emission engines to make oil, ongoing after numerous trips to dealer...and DOC/DPF both cleaned first time around 100,000 miles, ran fine and no extra oil till the last 30,000...since then have been told DOC/DPF needed cleaning twice in the last 30,000..Bus has 132,000 miles on it.

Numerous parts have been changed from a couple sets of Injectors, sensors, etc.etc.etc..besides the cleaning of exhaust parts...The bus went in to dealer this time for excessive smoke on acceleration(only does it 2 or 3 times a day)not every stop and start..and 3 inches of extras oil...

Now it sounds or I am told that they think the EGR coolers are plugged,(might be able to clean? if not need replaced) EGR valve is plugged, all sensors in manifold are plugged, Intake throttle valve is bad(plugged sticking)...All totaling about 2500 dollars just in possible parts..as no longer in warranty as is over age limit.

So are we up against removing all emission parts on these things and replacing or cleaning them when they first start having problems or at the same time DOC/DPF need cleaned? Just curious what others think on this,,, and if you guys have heard same or had same parts replaced/cleaned? As it looks like it is going to be really expensive to keep these engines on the road as they age!!
I can't really get a good answer(or at least one I like the sound of) out of my dealer, it appears they are in the dark almost as much as we are..and seem to be grabbing at straws..?

Edited by - slippert on 04/08/2013 08:43:24 AM
Go to Top of Page

Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2013 :  04:27:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All of the EGR coolers on my units have been replaced because of clogging. IH fixed that problem....with a reflash! (Sarcasm intended) These buses have been reflashed at least 8 times and have not fixed anything! Now we are having to replace clogged EGR coolers and valves ourselves out of warranty (That is IH's real fix!!!). Clogged EGR coolers are a reality but don't cause the oil building. Clogged sensors are a fact of life with all the dirty crap they are running through the motors. Sometimes the Intake Throttle Valve does cause a problem during regen but it's not the solution to all of life's woes. They (tech central) love to throw injectors at the problem, but then we have to run the bus for a month to tell that they have not fixed a thing and then must endure another flunkie from tech central making another wild guess as to the problem. To their credit, I did get a call from my dealer that said that the next time I experience this problem (which is all the time!), they will send an engineer out to look. The only problem is that they have no clue how to fix this! INSTALL A DOWNSTREAM DOSER! I would recommend that you drop your DOC and blow it out again and change the oil. IF your DPF was cleaned by a facility with the FSX machine that has a good operator and your DPF was brought back into the green range, your DPF will be fine now. With the change to warmer weather, I bet you will be fine now. If you got an exchange DPF from IH, watch out. All of the exchange DPF's we have gotten from IH have had to be sent out soon thereafter for cleaning by our company. I know you can't get a good answer from your dealer because the only answer is a comprehensive fix from engineering which will never happen! It is far too complex an issue for any dealer to figure out much less a guy on a tech line following a flow chart that isn't correct. I have already been above tech central on this issue which helped but still only have partial solutions. Don't buy a bus with in cylinder dosing is the big lesson to learn.

Edited by - Bassman on 04/09/2013 04:33:29 AM
Go to Top of Page

willism
Senior Member

United States
143 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2013 :  06:51:24 AM  Show Profile  Visit willism's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Just lost a cam today on one of ours same one had egr coolers fail last week glad im the only one having these issues.
Go to Top of Page

Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2013 :  07:27:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry to hear. Haven't heard of that one yet. How did you know it? What were the symptoms?
Go to Top of Page

willism
Senior Member

United States
143 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2013 :  08:41:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit willism's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Had a miss called out #4 and 5 injectors bad got it all torn down and saw the valve bridge on #5 was off the valves. Got the bridge back on and found the valve turned and ground the lobe off the cam. Had that happen with a pre max dt last year. This bus has been the worst of our maxxforce dts ive memorized the vin if that says anything.
Go to Top of Page

bwest
Administrator

United States
2356 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2013 :  1:43:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willism

Had a miss called out #4 and 5 injectors bad got it all torn down and saw the valve bridge on #5 was off the valves. Got the bridge back on and found the valve turned and ground the lobe off the cam. Had that happen with a pre max dt last year. This bus has been the worst of our maxxforce dts ive memorized the vin if that says anything.



How many miles does it have on it?

Bryan
Go to Top of Page

Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 04/25/2013 :  03:49:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
LOL on the VIN memorization. I was in a large meeting with IC corp officials one day on the VT365 debacle and challenged their replacement policy claim on injectors and the guy says ,"what's the VIN number on that unit?" and I recited it without batting an eye and the room full of fleet managers busted out laughing!
Go to Top of Page

willism
Senior Member

United States
143 Posts

Posted - 04/25/2013 :  04:24:44 AM  Show Profile  Visit willism's Homepage  Reply with Quote
80k
Go to Top of Page

Brad Barker
Administrator

USA
838 Posts

Posted - 04/25/2013 :  04:52:22 AM  Show Profile  Visit Brad Barker's Homepage  Click to see Brad Barker's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
The efforts put forth by engineering groups are tremendous. It is unfortunate a perfect engine cannot be provided, but if it were we would be out of work. Constant communication with your dealer reps is imperative to solve issues and get solutions on the table. Issues like this published in the forum assist in bringing to light some of the problems we are facing and are a great benefit to solution finding.
Thanks to all of you for your continued efforts to help us all find these solutions.
Brad

Brad A. Barker
Go to Top of Page

Brad Barker
Administrator

USA
838 Posts

Posted - 04/26/2013 :  04:13:57 AM  Show Profile  Visit Brad Barker's Homepage  Click to see Brad Barker's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Someone asked a while ago about a TSI concerning injector o rings. The TSI I found is TSI 05-12-16.
By the way, we are selling 10 year engine warranties on our IC buses now and including them to some customers in the price of the bus. This doesn't help you with the warranties which have expired but if your bus is still in warranty, extended warranties can still be purchased. This will help offset the maintenance cost but you will still be faced with the inconvienience of downtime at the dealer to make repairs.
There is also a great body warranty available which covers everything the engine warranty does not cover.
Just a thought to consider.

Brad A. Barker
Go to Top of Page

Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
709 Posts

Posted - 04/26/2013 :  1:14:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Brad,
So let me ask this: If I have a MFDT that's still in it's last year of base warranty(5 Years), can I enter into an extended warranty?
Go to Top of Page

Brad Barker
Administrator

USA
838 Posts

Posted - 04/28/2013 :  10:11:58 AM  Show Profile  Visit Brad Barker's Homepage  Click to see Brad Barker's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
You have to purchase it but yes we are doing this for our Utah customers. Check with your dealer salesman. Buses which have gone past the base warranty period are not eligible. Say you want to purchase a 10 year engine warranty and you are in your forth year of base, you are only purchasing an additional 5 years beyond the base. There are warranty plans available for just about anything you want, if you feel it justifyable to pay the price. If you know you are going to be keeping IC buses for a number of years still, base is still effective, and you are having reoccurring issues it may be worthwhile to purchase the extended warranty. If you figure the cost of a full set of injectors, is the cost of extended warranty worth the upfront expense? There is a warranty list available which shows all plans and current costs.

Brad A. Barker
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
 


School Bus Fleet Magazine Forums © 2013 School Bus Fleet Magazine Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.28 seconds. Snitz Forums 2000