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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
 Posted - 09/16/2008 : 09:25:43 AM
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| I just checked the first bus mentioned in the string of posts and it has gained 5/8 inch in 1300 miles so far this year. Last year, this bus seemed to be OK and was not gaining level, but it sure is gaining level now. The hot exhaust light is down and to the right and has a different symbol in the center. The light mentioned in the string above is up and to the left of center. This bus is not lighting any lights or setting any codes yet. You need a lot more dilution and a lot more level to do that. We are early in the oil change cycle yet. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2008 : 09:29:19 AM
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| The worst one is headed to the dealer this week. |
Edited by - Bassman on 09/16/2008 09:32:44 AM |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2008 : 07:56:57 AM
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| iKnow case filed with International...Here is the response..."There is an updated ECM calibration for this engine. Update it, change the oil, and ask the customer to re-evaluate the oil growth and the driveability and smoke." It is being done as I type. Anybody want to bet money that reprogramming will fix fuel in oil??? This will be the buses third reprogramming. |
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BusFleet
Active Member
USA
36 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2008 : 08:57:18 AM
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| Not touching that one! :o))) |
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Mechan1c
Top Member
USA
853 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2008 : 09:46:11 AM
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| I bet it does nothing. In my case we open a file, they say replace the lift pump (for the 2nd time) that's in the AFC, change oil and re-evaluate. How this is going to fix the 6 streaming injectors I do not know. |
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Nick
Advanced Member
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2008 : 11:58:54 AM
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Do they even think before putting out these "fixes"? Unless the ECM is running it way too rich, how is a reprogramming going to fix it? I'm not even a mechanic and I figured that out! And all the brains over at IH can't?
No updates from IH about the "analysis"? I'd suggest keep nagging them until they give you an answer. |
IC the future, and it is bright. |
Edited by - Nick on 09/17/2008 12:46:32 PM |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2008 : 05:33:06 AM
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| Surprise, surprise. The driver called in from the run this morning and the bus is still putting out intermittent smoke (reported as white) and still surging. We'll have to watch for the oil level to rise yet. |
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busgeek++
Advanced Member
United States
253 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2008 : 4:50:45 PM
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| Maybe the ECM is overfueling, making the problem worse? Or it could be wearing out / damaging injectors from that too. |
Buses are not a way of life, they are life |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2008 : 11:58:49 AM
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The MaxxForce DTs use a piston type lift pump, and there was a batch of bad ones.
Why would ANYONE say they are "streaming"? Did you watch them fire?
Yes, the reflash may completely solve this issue. A tech told me, and he could have only part of the story, that the reflash does a lot of small things one of which is to use very small fuel injections during the EXHAUST stroke (also may change the timing of them?) on multiple cylinders instead of a single larger shot on rotating cylinders. This greatly improves the amount of fuel making it out of the cylinder on a cold engine.
This added fuel is for regeneration only, and the less frequently you regen, the less of a problem this is to begin with. Cool EGTs are the root cause here, that causes more frequent regeneration cycles.
The MF 7 also uses a Diesel Common Rail fuel system, if ANY of the injeector pipes are loose, even a TINY BIT, or re-used, they will leak - maby a lot, maybe a little, but they will leak. It is also CRITICAL that the exact proper procedure be used to Tq the fuel lines to the injector, or even to remove them for that matter. Failure to follow the procedure EXACTLY, will cause the fuel fitting on the injeector(s) to leak. This is a service and procedure issue. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
Edited by - ModMech on 09/19/2008 12:00:25 PM |
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Mechan1c
Top Member
USA
853 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2008 : 5:50:21 PM
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Your Question: "Why would ANYONE say they are "streaming"? Did you watch them fire?"
Yea, I get your drift...that's part of the problem. The quick answer would be because that's the problem with my engines, but no one seems to be up to the task. My problem is why NO ONE will say they are sreaming. Now for the long answer:
Because I did the TSI #05-12-16 in my shop to verify what I thought was occuring, and I strapped the goggles on and watched it myself. All 6 were streaming. That's correct...all 6. Every 2007 bus (I have 18 of them) has fuel dilution to the point of dropping out of grade (1-3% Fuel Dilution) and most are dropping 2 grades (above 3% FD). Yep...I've got 20 Weight. I have a 9% FD that the V100 oil analysis is 7.17! (My new Delvac1 ESP 5W40 has a V100 of 15 when new) So imagine my displeasure when I hear "that's normal" or "if it's not over 10% we can't do anything" or "you need to change your oil sooner." We've changed a lot of oil, and taken a lot of oil samples, and never in my 23 years here, has my limiting factor been fuel in my oil. So now that I'm done ranting...What would I like from customer service? Injectors that shoot fuel into the cylinders w/ <1% fuel dilution. That's it. Your thoughts? |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2008 : 7:13:42 PM
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Less than 7% is completely normal with ANY engine that uses "in cylinder dosing" of the DOC/DPF.
All MaxxForce engines use the in-cylinder dosing solution, so the presumption that there is ANYTHING at all wrong with the injector(s) spray pattern is incorrect. If the o-rings are seeping then sure, you *could* get excessive dilution that way. It is also *possible* for the injectors to be leaking internally even though the fuel is at low pressure relative to ICP. This can be VERY difficult to verify accurately and I have never personally seen it. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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Nick
Advanced Member
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2008 : 9:56:34 PM
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| Mechan1c is running EPA '04 DTs (i.e. no DPF, so no dosing). |
IC the future, and it is bright. |
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Mechan1c
Top Member
USA
853 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2008 : 8:32:11 PM
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Yea Mod, Nick's correct. These are '07 CE's with '06 emission DT's. These have "GEN 2" injectors designed by Sturman. I get my first 4 of 28 new 2008 CE's on Tuesday and they are comming with MaxForce DT's. It will be interesting to see an oil sample with the 2,000 or so miles they'll have from the trip out to Seattle from Tulsa. They came with 15W40 RotellaT last time and we then cut over to Delvac1. We don't sample to bust IC's @*&^%$, we do it so we know what's going on in our engines. Take a look at that TSI I mention and the "streaming" is actually a term used it it for describing a known leaking issue. Now maybe they're working on some replacement injectors with different tolerances. No one can answer the question: "Are the new replacement injectors any different than the factory ones?" I have a set of DT replacement injectors in a similar vintage 4300 truck, so my plan is to drag it in my shop and have one of my guys do a dye test on the replacements to see if that changed anything. They've ran about a month. Those were put in by a local Navistar Truck dealer, my IC dealer is a dedicated bus operation.
Fuel dilution can come from injection timing strategy that causes fuel injected into the cylinders to go past the rings because it's happening late in the combustion cycle (and not completely burned) for reasons mentioned earlier(Emissions). Fuel dilution can also come from external seals leaking where the injector fits in the head. Lastly, fuel dilution can come from internal injector leaks via the weep hole in the side of the injector. |
Edited by - Mechan1c on 09/20/2008 8:36:06 PM |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2008 : 05:34:58 AM
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| Report is back from oil analysis. There is 4.7% fuel in oil in 1800 miles. The oil analysis co calls it a moderate amount of oil and advises to check the fuel injection system. (From my perspective it is doesn't sound good...but it sounds better that the 20% fuel in oil that I had in 2700 miles before the injectors were replaced!!) What do you guys think about 4.7% in 1800 miles (three weeks)? Thanks. |
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Mechan1c
Top Member
USA
853 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2008 : 11:43:22 AM
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From what I've seen in my samples, your 4.7% will put you right in the middle of the 20 weight range after 1800 miles. Your V100 will probably be around 8.2 @100 C cSt. If you run a 15W40 Delvac/Delo/Rotella you start out a little below 15. This is close to half, and I have to wonder about the film strength. This level of thinness will definitely test an oil's anti-wear package. I have to wonder what happens when you get in an extreme situation loaded, running on a hot day, with no margin. The idea that this level of fuel dilution is ok doesn't fly. If the dilution rate stays the same you will be at 10% in 3800 miles.
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sambrutay
Advanced Member
United States
271 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2008 : 07:23:02 AM
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| Our major oil maker (33% dilution) just came back from the dealer. Engine replaced. We continue to have buses come in anywhere from 4 to 6 qts overfull on oil. Making oil even with the latest ECM reflash RW30. We are monitoring 10 buses and there isn't a pattern. One will make oil and another may not. Puzzling...... |
Bruce |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2008 : 09:15:16 AM
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| Ours are very puzzling too. It seems that the ones that gained oil before and were fixed by new injectors for at least 6 mos. are starting to build again. My best observations so far are that 5 out of our 10 Maxxforce DTs are gaining level to veryng degrees since the start of school. The one that I had back to the dealer also had imtermittent smoking problems and was surging some. Tech central replaced the DOC. I am not sure about the resoning behind this. We're still trying to get a handle on it. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2008 : 10:44:09 AM
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| I have e-mailed IH corporate people again today (have received no comprehansive word on anything). The bus that received the DOC has stopped the heavy white smoke that happens several times per week. We will have to see if it builds oil level again. I have three more buses (Maxxforce DT) with oil levels over 1 inch full. I sampled two of them last week. One comes back at 10% fuel in oil in 4068 miles. The other was 8.3% fuel in oil in 4800 miles. These units have approximately 40,000 miles on them. The three with the very high levels are all reporting heavy white smoke for brief periods several times per week. We're still trying to get action going on this issue. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 08:14:44 AM
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| Possible Breakthrough on a cause/cure. My worst bus went in to dealer. After back and forth between dealer and Tech Central, they suggested changing the DOC (diesel oxidation catalyst in the exhaust system). The screen at the front looked like it was mostly plugged. I was skeptical, but monitored the results. Intermittent white smoke disappeared completely and immediately. So far, in 2800 miles, no rise in oil level. (This bus was 4.7% in 1800 miles before.) If this fixes it, the explanation would go something like this...the DOC was bad resulting in regen not being effective. This would result in frequent regens. This engine uses in cylinder dosing (using the normal injectors but firing them on the exhaust stroke) to assist in getting temps high enough if necessary. This fuel is somehow (whether by excessive pressure due to a plugged DOC? or what I am not sure)getting down past the rings and into the crankcase. I know my description might be a little crude but you get the just of it. I sent the second bus into the dealer this morning to see if it will fix the symptoms on it as well. |
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Nick
Advanced Member
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 08:50:33 AM
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BREAKTHROUGH!!!  Congrats on finally, possibly finding a solution to this. I've been anxious waiting for a fix, and I was hoping they would deal with this better than they did with the VT injectors. Do you think they did?
Possibly an answer to the problems with sambrutay's MaxxForce 7s as well? |
IC the future, and it is bright. |
Edited by - Nick on 10/21/2008 08:52:37 AM |
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sambrutay
Advanced Member
United States
271 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 09:22:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick
BREAKTHROUGH!!! Congrats on finally, possibly finding a solution to this. I've been anxious waiting for a fix, and I was hoping they would deal with this better than they did with the VT injectors. Do you think they did?
Possibly an answer to the problems with sambrutay's MaxxForce 7s as well?
I can only hope! We Just bought 30 more! |
Bruce |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 10:53:22 AM
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| Can't speak to the totality of their handling of the situation yet. It remains to be seen WHY they plugged up or went bad and how many or how often they will fail. The fellow that I talked to on the phone back in the summer from tech central is the one that ultimately suggested the action of changing the DOC via the iKnow system. I still haven't heard anything official through corporate contacts. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2008 : 09:22:49 AM
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| After further review, let me clarify one thing. Ultimately the bus that seems to be fixed received both a reprogramming AND a DOC. The reprogramming definitely did not fix the smoking, but the bus didn't run long enough with the reflash to see if it had any effect on the increasing oil level. The bus that I sent in this week received both the reprogramming and a DOC also. I am going to send our next worst oil maker to the dealer for just the reprogramming and let it continue to smoke for a month or so to test the effectiveness of the reflash alone. I'll advise when we get conclusions. |
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Nick
Advanced Member
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2008 : 05:43:08 AM
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| I think I'll retract my earlier statement about the ECM reprogram not doing anything. Maybe the ECM was running the engine too rich, creating lots of particulates and other crud that clogged the DOC and caused the frequent regens leading to the fuel in oil. Just fixing the ECM wouldn't help, since the DOC is still plugged and causing exhaust restriction, which would cause excessive regens. But by changing both, you stop both the production of DOC-clogging particles and the excessive regens that the clogged DOC causes. |
IC the future, and it is bright. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2008 : 10:57:11 AM
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| Next Update: The first bus that received a reflash AND a DOC has 4114 miles on the oil and is no longer building oil on the stick. The second bus that received a reflash AND a DOC has 1400 miles with no oil level building on the stick. The bus that received a reflash ONLY has gone 2176 miles and has built 1 inch on the stick. I think that we can conclude that the clogged DOCs are contributing to the fuel dilution problem and to the white smoking. Whether the reflash will help to eliminate the DOC clogging or going bad in the future remains to be seen. |
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Nick
Advanced Member
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2008 : 06:41:24 AM
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| I hope you (or the tech you talked to) let IH corporate know about this. I'm sure there are others out there with this problem that would really like to know this. |
IC the future, and it is bright. |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2008 : 6:32:37 PM
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I have 3 Maxxforce DTs in our fleet..... 2 buses and one dump/plow truck. The dump truck has been reflashed and the buses are operating perfectly.
After reading all of this thread, I will be watching them all very closely.
CJRon, you have a big fleet. What are you experiencing in this area? |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2008 : 02:59:49 AM
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| Success verified! I just received the results of the oil analysis on one of the buses that was making a major amount of oil and received a new DOC. After 7,000 miles, my fuel in oil is only 2.9% which is a night and day difference from before. How are the Maxxforce 7's doing? |
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jeepcjron
Advanced Member
USA
262 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2008 : 04:41:10 AM
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we have no issues with fuel in the oil in ours and others(i have heard of some transfer pump o-rings out there failing though). the white smoke is the ash by product of the soot regen and i dont think you are going to get rid of it. it should get a little better but wont go away.
just my opinion and expierince. |
its like a slinky! useless but fun to watch. |
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mastertech
Advanced Member
274 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2010 : 1:37:42 PM
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| Any updates on this . We sent an 09 maxxforce 7 to the dealer back in march for fuel in the oil. They reprogrammed and changed the oil. In the last 4900 miles it was 6 quarts overfull. If you take into consideration the engine burned several quarts of oil in that time thats most likely at least 2 gallons of fuel getting in there. |
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BJ Henderson
Advanced Member
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2010 : 05:53:39 AM
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We are having the same issues here. Constantly we have buses at the dealership for fuel in oil or defective injectors, high pressure oil pumps, transfer pumps. I must say we have excellent dealer support! This is the area that IH or IC is competent in in our area.
Bassman, if the feature for the dash information center is on with your buses, you might read the codes from there. I do that sometimes where the codes from the laptop or scan tool do not make sense.
If I understood correctly, this is an option to have the feature turned on or off from IH. Sorry IC. :) |
CMTT,CMAT,CMBT |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 03:55:00 AM
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| One of our buses was the test platform for the fix of the low horsepower model for this problem. IH flew two guys out here and put a test ECM on one of our buses with monitoring equipment early this year. We changed memory sticks and transmitted monitoring data daily. The programming work raised the exhaust temps and improved the efficiency of the regens. It dropped the total number of regens a lot. It fixed the oil building problem on our test bus. Following that exercise, they installed the test programming in all 10 of my Maxxforce DT's and none of them have built oil since then. I recently received AFC G-10914 which requires a reprogramming on these DT's. I called to check on whether to get the work done since I don't want to mess up what I have. I understand that the program changes that worked in our buses are incorporated into this AFC. I hope it helps your fleets as well. The reason it fixes the problem stems from the in cylinder dosing that is used in this engine. The fuel is injected into the cyl during the exhaust stroke to achieve the temps necessary for regen. Excessive and inefficient regens amplify this oil dilution problem. I just signed for 5) 2011 model year (2010 emissions) Maxxforce DT's and they now use a downstream doser just behind the turbo and just before the down pipe. I believe now like I believed through the process that most of the fuel pump changing and most of the injector work is just throwing something at the problem. |
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sambrutay
Advanced Member
United States
271 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 05:20:49 AM
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| We are still making oil in our Maxx 7's. But we can't focus on them because we own 182 VT365's. The VT's being total crap keeps the focus off of the M7's making oil. |
Bruce |
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BusFleet
Active Member
USA
36 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2010 : 09:45:26 AM
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Bassman - Thanks for all that you did in seeing this situation through. We just received our AFC's for this issue (we only have four).
Sambrutray - 182 VT365's??? Our heart goes out to you. Keep the oil clean! |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2010 : 03:57:27 AM
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| The light with the exclamation mark is separate from the high exhaust temp light. It turns out that the light (back in the beginning of this episode) was being set due to the inability to build ICP at engine crank from the oil dilution. Once the oil dilution/over full situation was straightened out, that light/code hasn't come up again. You need oil dilution in excess of 20% to see this. One side affect of this reprograming is higher temps and thus you see the high exhaust temp light more frequently. |
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Topic |
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Maxxforce DT Emissions Fault light/Fuel in Oil
