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 Maxxforce DT Emissions Fault light/Fuel in Oil
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2008 :  09:37:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
2008 IC CE300 with Maxxforce DT w/20,000 miles - illuminating Emissions Fault light (exclamation mark with exhaust blowing through it) setting 2335 code "ICP unable to build during engine crank" (comes on while bus is in its route on an increasing basis). Oil level has been increasing until way overfull (1 inch on stick). Oil has distinct smell but not conclusively diesel to the nose. Dealer did a dye test by putting it in the fuel filter and then running for a short period. #1 Injector (under ultraviolet light) shows diesel fuel leaking down the injector into crankcase as well as several other injectors weeping fuel out of the weep hole on the side of the injector into the crankcase. Oil analysis came back 20% fuel in oil. Tech central denied injectors and said to replace lift pump but rep ordered the four injectors to be replaced. Parts are on the way to the dealer.

Just today, found second bus of same vintage setting same light/code and intermittent smoke out tailpipe. Several weeks ago, the oil was 1/4 inch overfull. Now it's 1 inch overfull and has the same distinct smell. We are changing and running to see if it temporarily fixes the symptoms before the level rises again.

Anyone having any similar experiences on this engine?

ModMech
Top Member

USA
948 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2008 :  2:41:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit ModMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
That does not add up.

There is no way you will get a 2335 code whith the engine running, and it would not be an active code.

You cannot check injectors for leaking fuel when you already have fuel in the oil.

Tech Central was mostly correct, they need to check the transfer pump first, but it is not impossible for the injector(s) to be seeping fuel.

I certainly hope they get this resolved for you ASAP.

If you want customer service, you NEED an International!
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2008 :  10:54:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know it doesn't seem right but I would make a note of it, because it's been true on 2 different buses so far. On the first bus mentioned, I personaly saw the light come on, say active/inactive beside the 2335 on the screen with it running, shut the bus off, restarted it and the code went completely inactive. It also flunked a KOER ICP test for me. Probably oil dilution. On the second bus mentioned, we changed the oil AND the transfer pump today. We'll see in a couple weeks if the level comes back up. This should save the dealer some time. Do you have any idea why the "counts" column is always reading 000 in the new service assistant? It's impossible to know how many times these code have been set. Thanks for the reply.
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jeepcjron
Advanced Member

USA
259 Posts

Posted - 03/20/2008 :  6:19:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
that code may come on a restart but not while running. mod hit most of the points. fuel in the oil will help set that code when hot and the oil is deluted. but not while running. it is a cranking code.

its like a slinky! useless but fun to watch.
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2008 :  04:22:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Update: the bus that received the four injectors and a lift pump is fixed and no longer gaining level in the crankcase. In 3,000 miles, it has used 3/8 inch on the stick.

The second bus (which we changed the oil AND the lift pump on) is still gaining level. In 2400 miles since the oil/filter change, the level has risen 3/8 inch, the oil looks thinner and has an odor again and the bus is once again illuminating the light that has an exclamation point with exhaust blowing through it (emissions fault light). The light comes on while driving down the road. This morning, for the first time, the light stayed on while cranking. It will be headed to the dealer soon, but I'm trying to dot my "I's" and cross my "T's" to try to make sure tech central can't refuse injectors this time. I don't want to play the downtime game again.

The bad news...I found a third bus (same vintage) yesterday where the oil level is over full, the oil looks thin, it is laying funny on the stick and smells funny. No further facts on this bus yet but will advise as we pursue the problem.

Anyone else experiencing symptoms like these yet?
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 04/28/2008 :  10:56:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Update on second bus from above - the one that got the oil changed and received a lift pump. The oil level still increased until it was 3/8 inch overfull in 2700 miles. I took a sample of the oil and ssent the bus to the dealer. One injector showed as leaking into the crankcase using dye/ultraviolet light. One injector was replaced and the bus is back on the road. The report came back from oil analysis and this one also had 20% fuel in oil. We are monitoring to ensure it is fixed.
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bbird66
Top Member

USA
881 Posts

Posted - 04/28/2008 :  2:09:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What is the root cause? ULSD? any ideas being thrown around?

Were gonna miss you "Brent"..Good luck in "Heidi land"

"I know you miss the Wainwrights Bobby, but they were weak and stupid people...and that's why we have wolves and other large predators" .. The Far Side

"On a two hour delay when will my child be picked up??"








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Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 04/29/2008 :  03:32:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not to be sarcastic, but you have to actually have an idea before you can throw it around! No one is pursuing it at all to this point. I hope to have better success getting IH to act on this new issue than I did on the VT365 injector issue. I fought that one for years! I have found that often times good fleets are far ahead of them on the learning curve.
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wistech
Active Member

United States
48 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2008 :  04:41:45 AM  Show Profile  Visit wistech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I know there was a TSI for the I6 injector o-rings on ISIS in late 2006 or early 2007. Now it has disappeared from the ISIS laundry list. I remember the TSI stated to replace injector o-rings to stop fuel mixing with oil, but now I can't find it. Anyone else remember this?
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
235 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2008 :  04:54:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anything new with this problem? I have several Maxxforce 7's atleast 3 to 4 qt's overfull.

Bruce
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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
709 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2008 :  1:07:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So far on 6 oil samples on '07 IC-CEs w/'06 emission DT's, all have thinned 1 grade and show fuel dilution, up to 3%. These samples are from the 2nd fills and they vary from 15-23K on the buses themselves. Of course I asked my IC dealer to look into this and the answer was "that's normal." I told him no, this is not normal, and then he wanted to know what kind of oil we were using. When I told him Delvac 1 he decided it wasn't probably the oil. The metals are good, the TBN is robust,and the soot levels are minimal. On all 18 of this group of buses, the oil level is climbing on the stick 2-3 quarts. These buses have been plauged with lift pump issues as well. I'm going to do a dye test myself on the one with the highest fuel dilution.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
3369 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2008 :  4:12:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"that's normal" Nice.
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2008 :  08:27:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Update on our buses. My first bus is no longer gaining level, but an analysis after 6,000 miles still shows 6.3% fuel in oil. Changing four injectors reduced the problem but didn't solve it completely. My IH rep said over 10% is considered a problem. (My oil analysis company says over 5% is a problem and the reports come back showing red for abnormal). The second bus (the one that has had a lift pump and one injector replaced) came back at 5.6% fuel in oil in 1500 miles and was still increasing level like mad. Now...for the good news.....my rep hooked me up with an EXCELLENT guy from the engine group in a conference call and following our conversation, he approved ordering and installing the other five injectors immediately and ordered that the injectors be sent to him for analysis. This has been accomplished and I am once again monitoring the oil levels on the units with new injectors and awaiting a report back on what is going on. I don't know if a solution will result from this conversation, but I am pleased to be able to communicate with someone from IH that is in a position to pursue an issue like this. Thank you for the other responses. Please keep updating so we know how wide spread the problem is becoming.
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IBTMech
Top Member

USA
973 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2008 :  5:42:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit IBTMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have been monitoring our two Maxxforce vehicles with nothing out of range to report so far.

If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years.
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
235 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2008 :  06:57:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well. I think I may have the Oil crisis figured out. I have 23 MAXXFORCE 7 engines making oil (current count and rising). All we have to do is keep draining off the oil we make and use it for future oil changes,Thus saving mo money mo money...... I am going to be a hero around here. Now we can get a raise. Seriously we have a problem with these. oil sample shows fuel dilution over 4 percent. aluminum was high also. It is in the dealers hands now. Hopefully they find a fix.

Bruce
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2008 :  11:03:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We just found a fourth bus and sent the sample out today. Results to be forthcoming!
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origcharger
Top Member

United States
619 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2008 :  7:28:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sambrutay

Well. I think I may have the Oil crisis figured out. I have 23 MAXXFORCE 7 engines making oil (current count and rising). All we have to do is keep draining off the oil we make and use it for future oil changes,Thus saving mo money mo money...... I am going to be a hero around here. Now we can get a raise. Seriously we have a problem with these. oil sample shows fuel dilution over 4 percent. aluminum was high also. It is in the dealers hands now. Hopefully they find a fix.



Do you have any new emission engines that are not doing this?
I assume the correct fuel and engine oil is being used in these engines? Of course the wrong fuel and/or incorrect oil can lead to excessive regenerations which leads to fuel diluting the oil.

Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2.
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2008 :  11:33:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fourth bus results came back showing 10% fuel in oil. Bus has 31,400 miles on it and has a little over 6,000 miles on this oil.
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
235 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2008 :  08:10:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The count gets bigger. We will begin driving them when they get back from the dealer. They want us to put 1000 miles on them as quick as we can. We will monitor the oil level/mileage/hours each morning. Then reevaluate. We have 90 with the MAXXFORCE 7. We have 54 more on order……….

Bruce
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ModMech
Top Member

USA
948 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2008 :  08:21:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit ModMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The light with the exclamation point and exhaust blowing thru it is an AFTERTREATMENT WARNING LIGHT, it DOES NOT indicate an "engine" problem.

There are a number of warning lights on the newer ICs with the MAxxForce engines:
1) Amber triangle = look at LCD disply for a message and nothing more.
2) Amber exhaust w/thermometer = High Exhaust Temp, use caution where you park if RUNNING. It is completely normal for this light to illuminate from time to time while driving, in fact that is GOOD.
3) Amber exhaust light = "Soot Load" or "DPF Status", either means the same thing - the DPF is more than: Solid = 1/3 "full"; Flashing 2/3 "full"; Flashing w/beeper and Amber Triangle = "Nearly FULL".
4) RED Octagon w/exclamation point = ENGINE WARNING, STOP ENGINE AS SOON AS IT IS SAFE!
5) Amber Wrench = Service Needed (oil change typically)
6) Amber Exclamation Point w/Exhaust = Emissions System problem (after treatment sensor etc).
7) Amber "Engine Warning" light = ECM has detected an engine problem that needs to be evaluated by a technician. Continued operation IS OK as long as all gauges remain within the "Normal Operating Range".

There may be one or two more, but these are the only ones you see typically.

If you want customer service, you NEED an International!
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2008 :  02:14:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Mod, what is the spec for an unacceptable percentage of fuel in the oil in a Maxxforce?
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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
709 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2008 :  08:43:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"Hey Mod, what is the spec for an unacceptable percentage of fuel in the oil in a Maxxforce?"

Or in my case the '06 emission DT466.
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ModMech
Top Member

USA
948 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2008 :  11:15:52 AM  Show Profile  Visit ModMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I do not know of any published specifications, although I am sure that somewhere in the world there are engineering specs for it.

Generally fuel dilution under 7% is normal for any engine, and those with aftertreatment may be slightly higher.

If you want customer service, you NEED an International!
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ModMech
Top Member

USA
948 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2008 :  4:18:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit ModMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
So far everything I have heard from those running the MAxxForce 7 is the best fuel efficiency they have ever seen, and the quietest engine as well.

While I don't think there is anything on this earth that could be considered perfect (at least mechanical stuff), I honestly have not heard anything negative yet about the MaxxForce 7s.

There is absolutely no way you should ever have over 10% dilution w/o a failure of a fuel line etc. Proper service intervals are CRITICAL, and often overlooked in favor of a "one interval fits all" method, let's see why....

The published service intervals for OIL and associated filtration are: 10,000 MILES, 6 MONTHS, 1000 GALLONS or 550 HOURS - Whichever comes FIRST.

- The lube system holds 18 quarts of API "CJ-4" oil.
- The quantity from "Low" to "Full" is 2 US Quarts (1/2 gallon).
- 2 quarts represents 1/36th of the total system capacity (at service), or about 2.7%.
- Therefore you would need to be 3 quarts overfull to attain a 4% fuel dilution of 18 quarts of oil.

I have seen zero reports of fuel dilution over 1% on anything that has the oil changed per manufacturer's reccomended intervals (10K, 1K, 550H, 6mo).

If you want customer service, you NEED an International!
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
235 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2008 :  03:35:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We service every 9,000 miles. And will change it between 7500-9000 miles if it comes in the shop. oil changes are flagged @ 500 miles before 9000 mile. We are draining anywhere from a gallon to 6 qts of oil to bring back to proper level. As for best milege I will let you know. Got 90 maxxforce 7's. hopefully we fare better w/ them than the VT365's.

Bruce
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2008 :  05:33:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some of those numbers don't seem right. Adding 3 quarts of diesel to 18 quarts of oil would yield a little over 14% fuel in oil if no oil has been consumed by the engine. 2 quarts is 1/9 of your capacity if your capacity is 18 quarts which is 11.1%. 1 inch overfull on the stick is a least 3 quarts. We have had to shorten our oil change intervals well below the recommended due to the oil issues.
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
235 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2008 :  12:35:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I said it was over 4%. Dont know how much. the report was only saying over 4%. And that was just on 1 of many. Anyway IH is on it now. I guess we will know something in the next month or 2. They have taken samples from 30 busses w/ various milages on oil changes. fuel and new oil samples. So I would say that it must be of some concern.

Bruce
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origcharger
Top Member

United States
619 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2008 :  1:34:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In the last month I have been in two meetings with Navistar people from Chicago, both times there was frustration and concern expressed about the continued unavailability of ULSD in some parts of the country and the quality of ULSD fuel most everywhere else. The quality issue remarks centered around salt being left in the fuel from the sulfer removal process and alledged unknown to the consumer, EPA allowed biodiesel blending at the refinery level.
It will be interesting to hear what they find out about your fuel.

Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2.
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ModMech
Top Member

USA
948 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2008 :  7:20:18 PM  Show Profile  Visit ModMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Nothing like converting QUARTS into GALLONS to mess up the math....

Thanks Bass for catching that, I too was thinking from experience, that 4% would be undetectable, but 3 qts in 18 GALLONS definatley would be.....3 PINTS in 18 QUARTS would not.

If you want customer service, you NEED an International!
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2008 :  02:51:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Update: Injectors from the last bus are still in IH hands (since May)awaiting analysis and I'm still awaiting an answer from them. I spoke IH corporate people two weeks ago who promised a change in their "culture" where they seek out and repair this type of thing early on instead of letting things fester for years. My buses that have had injectors replaced seem to be doing fine...although I lose a little control in the summer the way our summer routes run. I'll update when something changes. Any other problems with oil dilution on the newer Maxxforces?
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sambrutay
Advanced Member

United States
235 Posts

Posted - 09/11/2008 :  04:29:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We are still making oil.

Bruce
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 09/12/2008 :  05:42:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Us too. I just sent an e-mail to the rep yesterday. The bus that got all the injectors replaced back in May and sent out for analysis is still (or once again) making oil. The level has risen over 3/4 inch since the summer oil change (1800 miles) and the bus has been having bouts of imtermittent white (according to the driver) smoke. This bus ran a summer run, but I don't have as good of control over the oil checking process in the summer to be able to report conclusively. The oil has that distinct odor again. I sent the oil out for analysis yesterday also. I also found 3 other buses that have gained level at a smaller rate since the start of school. I have never received a report from International on the analysis despite checking on it several times. I am currently scheduling the bus into the dealer for next week.
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Nick
Advanced Member

USA
333 Posts

Posted - 09/12/2008 :  11:40:17 AM  Show Profile  Send Nick an AOL message  Reply with Quote
How about the first one (4 injectors and the pump)?

IC the future, and it is bright.
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
516 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2008 :  02:42:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good Question. It was out all day when I checked the group of them. I will check it today. In this lot, I have one gaining a lot (mentioned above) one gaining a fair amount with an odor and two others gaining a little. This is in three weeks since the start of school.
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wagonmaster
Top Member

USA
2298 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2008 :  03:57:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
illuminating Emissions Fault light (exclamation mark with exhaust blowing through it)


I may be mistaken, but I thought this was exhaust high temp, not emissions fault??

Joe
Land of the Free, because of the Brave!
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Wolf0r
Top Member

USA
2179 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2008 :  06:39:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And to think these people are taking over the CAT highway engine. Do they even make a trouble free diesel engine yet. I wish they could clean up the old 466 IC and CAT 3126 emissions. Even the new Cummins is having issues.

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson
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