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black
Active Member
USA
49 Posts |
 Posted - 08/21/2007 : 12:38:20 PM
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| We had the parking brake on a 2005 hydraulic IC not want to release.We had it towed to the local IHC dealer and they said that the ABS modual had went bad and that to replace it would cost $3500.00. Have any of you run into this before? It just seems like highway robbery to me! |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2007 : 4:27:06 PM
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| This isn't covered under warranty? |
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black
Active Member
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 07:56:23 AM
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| They say it isn't covered under warranty which we are still arguing about but I just can't believe it could possibly cost this much. I mean the transmission wouldn't even cost this much to replace. |
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 09:28:00 AM
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| The antilock brake components are sometimes covered for signifcantly longer periods of time than "standard" pieces. Keep trying. |
Joe
Land of the Free, because of the Brave! |
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Kodie
Top Member
United States
2028 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 11:02:46 AM
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| All the more reason to stick with air. |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 6:21:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by black
We had the parking brake on a 2005 hydraulic IC not want to release.We had it towed to the local IHC dealer and they said that the ABS modual had went bad and that to replace it would cost $3500.00. Have any of you run into this before? It just seems like highway robbery to me!
The brake not releasing has been a WIDESPREAD problem on the newer IC hydraulic system. Depending on your location, I'd get in touch with IC's regional sales and regional service manager and get to bat. They can make a "policy" to have it covered.
It is no secret that these brakes have not released in the pass, so I don't see what the problem is.
Here is how to contact your local reps:
http://www.ic-corp.com/portal/site/ICCorp/menuitem.8c4d576c471e02a92ab89001931010a0/?vgnextoid=0625c6ebdbe21110VgnVCM10000085d0eb0aRCRD&vgnextfmt=default |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2007 : 08:52:54 AM
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You don't mention if it has Air or Hydraulic brakes, and EITHER system can have this happen, although it is about 100 times more common with the Hydraulic "Full Power Brake" system.
This vehicle *may* have a damaged ECU (electronic part of the system) due to over-voltage, this is NOT COVERED even if the vehicle is very new, as it is abuse of the electrical system. However, the ECU is seperately replaceable, and is no-where near quote you got of $3500.00!
I agree, you need to get IC involved, this sounds fishy (but possible). |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 04:39:02 AM
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Hey mod...question!!!!
Had an issue with a Freightliner that rings a bell here. The alternator was spiking voltage intermittantly and causing all sorts of problems that we and the dealer could not figure out... till somebody finally caught the needle being pegged out briefly.
So if an IC has this same issue, and it fries the ECU, it won't be covered even though that is not really abuse? They can't fix the thing, then bill Leese-Neville or Delco for what their product did? |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 08:00:28 AM
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| I would *think* that if you can show the alternator is making over 15.5V, then you would have a claim against the alternator manufacturer for "collatteral damage". |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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black
Active Member
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2007 : 12:08:32 PM
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| I just picked the bus up it is a 2005 IC with hydraulic brakes and the VT-365 engine and milage of 29,070. They replaced the HCU unit and pressure regulator and bleed the entire brake system.The parts bill was $3,481.00 and the labor was $854.64 for a total of $4,335.64 and this dosn't include the $300.00 towing bill or the $29.91 shop supplies.I was curious if any othe IC guys could tell me if this is really a normal problem or accurate bill? If it is I have 25 of these buses that I will be glad to sell next summer that is if they don't brake me before then. |
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BusFleet
Active Member
USA
36 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2007 : 12:55:19 PM
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| We have experienced similar problems with our IC's. Contacting the regional folks and calmly explaining the situation seems to work best (it does for us). IC HQ knows they have several issues, it's just frustrating at times trying to get repairs made in a reasonable time. Hopefully they will learn from this mess. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2007 : 05:04:33 AM
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| Sometimes a warranty situation like this can be tough for a dealer. When replacing brake components, they have to go directly through Wabco and these folks are notoriously bad for denying legitimate claims. My dealer has met numerous times with their rep re: this problem. I (the customer) have even had to call direct and lodge complaints with their customer service to clear the path for warranty jobs. I have seen them refuse to authorize an HCU replacment and then when replacing the HCU fixes the problem, they test it and say it is good. Even reinstalling the HCU on the vehicle and proving that the problem resurfaced was not good enough for them. Your dealer might have to push in several directions to get this one covered. Sometimes the dealer needs to end up begging the area service rep to cover it under "policy" too. It's best if you have a dealer that can wade through the maze of bullcrap and work with you well. Often they're the unlucky guys that get stuck in the middle. |
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wrenchu4
New Member
United States
1 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 10:20:37 AM
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| I have had the same problem with 2006 buses. I have had them to my local truck dealer so many times I lost track. The problem I was told is in the pumps they get an air bubble in the pump and it can't get rid of it. My bus dealer says that they need pumps put on them to cure the problem. My local truck dealer has put the new pumps on one bus and I haven't had a problem with it. The other bus they have bleed the brake system but it is still not wanting to release. I had a rep from International here and showed him what they were doing but I still not getting anywhere with my local dealer. They are a truck dealer and I don't think they want to mess with it. I am getting tired of messing with them myself. Hopefully they will get these fixed. What a pain in the these buses have been I will not buy anymore IC if they have this brake system on them. |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 3:49:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wrenchu4
The problem I was told is in the pumps they get an air bubble in the pump and it can't get rid of it. My bus dealer says that they need pumps put on them to cure the problem. My local truck dealer has put the new pumps on one bus and I haven't had a problem with it. The other bus they have bleed the brake system but it is still not wanting to release.
ROFLMAO!!!
Replaced the pump motors to cure air bubbles! NOT POSSIBLE. You have been fed a line of huey.
The motors operate against a piston, INSIDE the HCU, and those pistons are NOT in any way replaceable in the field w/o a new HCU. Period.
Anytime the brake fluid system is opened, it MUST be pressure bled with 35-38 PSI of pressure, your FOOT will never work.
The system is basically required to meet current and future DOT stoping requirements. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 04:13:52 AM
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| I didn't hear him say pump MOTOR. He said "pump." When this situation occurs, it is exactly as he wrote and when you can get the dealer to fix it, they replace what they tell us is called a "pump." I have one in my hand as we speak. It is a part number S478 407 928 2 Meritor Wabco part that looks sort of like a piston out of a valve body of a transmission with seals and a valve inside of it. His description of the symptoms is right on the money. We have it happen most often after a long weekend such as labor day. Tuesday morning I walked in to find that a 2006 IC would not build pressure in the front system. The bus will show and store a code which reads something like "Elec press cntrl front low pressure gradient" which means low pressure in the front system. We tryed for over an hour to get the thing to unlock the air bubble only to come back and hour later and find that it purged itself. If I take it to the dealer, they will call Meritor Wabco and will be told to do this involved bleeding process which will ultimately fix nothing. I have had at least 10 buses repaired FOR GOOD by having this "pump" thing replaced over the last two years. Each bus that receives this fancy bleed procedure will break again. The problem is in the material that was used in the seals on this little part. The ultimate answer is that the manufacturer needs to replace these parts with ones that are contructed with the correct material. I wrote a long letter regarding this situation yesterday to help apply pressure to the manufacturer of the part. The other big problem is that Meritor Wabco is really stubborn on paying claims that don't follow their exact instructions and the dealers are really getting the shaft doing things their way. All in all, the full power hydraulic brake system is doing pretty well with the exception of this annoying problem. We feel helpless because there is no way of predicting which one will break down next and when they do, there is nothing you can do to make the bus able to do its run much less even drive it to the dealer unless it unlocks itself. Pressure needs to be brought on the manufacturer to correct their problem. |
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black
Active Member
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 08:05:59 AM
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| I called IHC customer sevice 10 days ago about this problem and was told I would be recieving a call about it and as of today I still haven't heard anything from them. I talked to another contractor who runs several 2005/06 hydraulic IC's and he had 5 replaced under warranty and is fighting with them as we speak on 2 others they won't cover. IC has a major problem with this brake system and I believe it will end up in a class action lawsuit before its over with since this isn't some $400.00 broken dash we are talking about! |
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GEAR_HEAD
New Member
United States
3 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2007 : 08:22:19 AM
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For what it is worth,
I see two problems, some of the older vehicles seem to have sticking pumps, and some of the newer vehicles seem to have air in the system. Some of the old vehicles have sticking pumps if they sit for a while, with the motor-cam turned to the position of holding the pump-in; while parked for extended periods. (if this is seen, IMHO the pump should be replaced, which is a relatively inexpensive repair).
The newer vehicles do not seem to share this problem (example 2007 Build Medium Duty Trucks).
It seems some newer vehicles have piston pumps that have lost fluid prime, due to residual air in the brake system; This results in the inability to build pressure. This is fixed by priming the pumps, and purging the air from the system.
For those that don't know, this requires proper pressurizing of the system while firing up the pumps, to help prime them, then depleting the system a few times to get the air out of the valve (and into the reservoirs instead).
The main problem I see with the latter, is a lack of understanding of how to do this, or on how to follow the correct procedures on bleeding the system (if there is a lot of air in the system).
Certainly not true of every case, but it is definately true in many cases, especially at dealers that have zero exposure on the new system. Anytime a new system is introduced there is always a learning curve.
I have seen parts replaced with the same results, until the correct procedures were learned and used. Everybody has to learn.
Now even a spring brake chamber on an air system can put a vehicle in a "parked" position, requiring service work, and I have seen leaking spring brake chambers after 2-3 years of service.
I will say, I have seen a leaking spring brake chambers cause something much worse than a "parked" condition, and I will leave it at that.
There have been a few incorrect statements made in this thread, so for what it is worth, I will hopefully clear the air a little bit here; if nothing else, for the simple purpose of preventing any further imperceptions.
1.) Pressure from the brake system is used to release a spring brake (actually a spring brake canister that controls the cable to the driveline brake)
2.) If you have a problem building pressure in the brake system you will not be able to release the spring brake. (just like an air system)
3.) Releasing the brake and driving away, might actually be a bad thing to do, because you may still not have pressure in the brake system used for braking! (just like an air system)
No one likes to have the inconvenience of not being able to release the parking brake, but driving away without service brakes would be a much worse scenario.
Regardless of the cause of the issue, most dealers will be able to service and resolve the problem. As always, intermittent problems that cannot be duplicated at the dealer, can be very difficult to troubleshoot and determine a root cause.
The call-center people have a difficult task, and I do not envy their position, I understand that they are simply trying to make sure details are not overlooked, i's are dotted, and t's crossed, and the real root cause is addressed.
It does a dealer, and customer, no good to replace expensive parts, only to find out you have not resolved the real root cause of the problem.
Even if they provide all of the correct procedures, they are still relying on the dealer to carry out those procedures. Some do a great job of troubleshooting and repair, and some are still learning. There will always be some type of service issue, or damage to a vehicle that requires service, and the dealers are charged with the task of resolving these issues; IMHO, they should make sure they are using all of the technical resources available to them, as well as training opportunities to make life much easier!
Just my .02
Good luck!
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Edited by - GEAR_HEAD on 09/06/2007 08:32:58 AM |
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GEAR_HEAD
New Member
United States
3 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2007 : 09:27:55 AM
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Black, I have some good contacts at MW and ITE, and I would be glad to help you if you have any continued questions, or concerns.
There doesn't seem to be a method of PM'ing you on this site.
You can email me at rwdr.net@gmail.com and I will be happy to get you in contact with the appropriate parties.
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black
Active Member
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2007 : 2:08:39 PM
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| Thanks for the offer GEAR HEAD I'am talking with a Navistar rep now.Hopefully they will help out some we will see. |
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olskool4x4
New Member
1 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2018 : 08:56:23 AM
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HCU Brake System on a Workhorse UFO/R26 is the same as the Bus System, a PDF with pictures is posted on the IRV2.com website.
Remove/Install
Remove HCU: 2 People Needed
NOTE: First time it took me 6 hours to remove and install, it took 3 hours the second time.
1) Before removing the HCU remove the SAHR cable (Spring Applied Hydraulic Released). The SAHR must be bleed after the new HCU has been installed and the cable must be removed before bleeding. The best way to remove the SAHR cable is to block the wheels, put the transmission in “N” and push in on the yellow “Park Brake” knob to release the Parking Brake. This pressurizes the SAHR and releases the tension on the cable making removal easy.
2) Turn Key Off and Disconnect the battery
3) Press brake pedal 30 times to remove pressure in the HCU or use the TOOLBOX software.
4) Look at the Master Cylinder reservoir to ensure the brake fluid is at the MAX mark. When the fluid is at the MAX mark it should indicate the pressure has been released.
5) Remove electrical connectors x3
6) Put brake fluid container under HCU
7) Remove low pressure brake fluid hose from HCU, or open HCU bleeder’s and let the system drain. I hooked up my pressure unit to the MC and added 5 psi to help push out the fluid through the 2 bleeders.
8) Remove brake lines x 7
9) Remove 4 bolts that mount the HCU to the frame
10) Remove HCU and remove brackets from HCU and install on new HCU
Install New HCU: 2 People Needed
1) Disconnect the Battery
2) Mount brackets to New HCU
3) Mount HCU to RV Frame 4 bolts
4) Connect MC low pressure hose
5) Connect brake lines x 7, (4 Wheel, 2 Master Cylinder, 1 SAHR)
6) Connect electrical connectors x 3
7) Fill MC with new brake fluid (DOT 3, 4 or 5.1) (Don’t use DOT 5)
8) Hook up a pressure system to the MC (35 psi)
9) Bleed the system in this order: HCU, RR, LR, SAHR,FR, FL
10) Connect the battery, keep the system pressurized to 35 psi and turn the key on and let the HCU pumps run until they shut off, then you can remove your pressure equipment.
11) Last: With the key on and the system pressurized, ensure the vehicle is in “N” push in on the Parking Brake (Yellow Knob) to disengage the PB. This pressurizes the SHAR and makes it easy to reconnect the SAHR Cable.
Note: Quadraulic Brake Calipers have (2 Bleeders) on the Top of the caliper one on each side. Bleed the inside first and then the outside and then bleed the inside one more time.
Note: Before bleeding the SAHR the cable must be removed. The best way to remove the SAHR cable is to block the wheels, put the transmission in “N” and push in on the yellow “Park Brake” knob to release the Parking Brake. This pressurizes the SAHR and releases the tension on the cable make removal easy.
Part Numbers:
Travel Switch: S400-850-844-0 (Old Number S468 411 923 2)
Fluid level Switch: S468 413 921 2
Pump Repair kit: S478 407 928 2
HCU Valve Replacement: S478 407 929 2 with ATC
Park brake Switch: S446 280 012 0
Pressure Supply Valve: S476 901 920 2
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Topic |
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ABS Modual 2005 IC
