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news
Top Member
Canada
2951 Posts |
 Posted - 07/11/2007 : 1:35:13 PM
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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 / Detroit News Washington Bureau
WASHINGTON -- Federal regulators will soon propose requiring school bus seats to be taller to better protect older students, in the wake of two recent high-profile bus accidents.
full story |
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Sam
Advanced Member
United States
310 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2007 : 2:22:05 PM
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| It's nice to see the comparison rates of students killed on or near a school bus vs. walkers and bike riders. Are there any firm stats for car-riders on their way to/from school? |
"Ma'am, please don't yell at me. I'm just a substitute!" |
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Sandra (Ennis) Nunn
Top Member
Canada
1179 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2007 : 3:54:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam
It's nice to see the comparison rates of students killed on or near a school bus vs. walkers and bike riders. Are there any firm stats for car-riders on their way to/from school?
"Each year approximately 800 school-aged children are killed in motor vehicle crashes during normal school travel hours. This figure represents about 14 percent of the 5,600 child deaths that occur annually on U.S. roadways and 2 percent of the nation’s yearly total of 40,000 motor vehicle deaths. Of these 800 deaths, about 20 (2 percent)—5 school bus passengers and 15 pedestrians—are school bus–related. The other 98 percent of school-aged deaths occur in passenger vehicles or to pedestrians, bicyclists, or motorcyclists. A disproportionate share of these passenger vehicle–related deaths (approximately 450 of the 800 deaths, or 55 percent) occur when a teenager is driving."
The Relative Risks of School Travel: A National Perspective and Guidance for Local Community Risk Assessment |
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Sandra (Ennis) Nunn
Top Member
Canada
1179 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2007 : 4:56:29 PM
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Further from the above document:
"Approximately 75 percent of the deaths and 84 percent of the injuries resulting from crashes during normal school travel hours occurred in the two passenger vehicle categories, while only 2 percent of deaths and 4 percent of injuries occurred on school buses. Fatalities and injuries to student bicyclists and pedestrians involved in crashes represent the next-largest share—22 percent and 11 percent, respectively."
(sn) |
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JK
Top Member
USA
6913 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2007 : 5:34:16 PM
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It goes on and on, all while it becomes more and more apparent that seat belts, even lap belts could be a very effective device and without all the redesigning adventures to the seats themselves. Fact is that where seat belts are not required the seats themselves are often specked as cheap as a seat can be made without falling apart by simply sitting on it. Pull the seat base and look at the frame itself. Higher seats have one advantage in that they do help muffle noise. The disadvantages are numerous, including not being able to see younger children and what they are doing, the higher seat back providing even more leverage to brake the seat frame, and not being able to hear as clearly what kids are saying or even where unwanted noise is coming from. But even more sad is that according to I believe every study out there, more catastrophic injuries and deaths occur during side-impact crashes and rollovers, not during headons and rearenders. Reportedly eleven states allow overcrowding to the point of kids standing in the aisle. What bloomin' difference would higher seat backs make in those states and anywhere else that overcrowding the bus is tolerated? (jk)
Note: Free brochure for parents - "The seven highly effective steps to keeping your child safe" - Click Here for Link
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Post Check, Hostage Takeover, Bus Fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 07/11/2007 5:56:50 PM |
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thomasrider
Senior Member
53 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2007 : 9:41:38 PM
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I like Thomas Bus seats, but I've ridden on some International RE buses that have very uncomfortable seats. The seats are shorter on the backs and bottoms, and the padding is thinner. My legs barely fit halfway over the seat. It's like sitting on a stool. The seat material sags around the seat frame and seems to be very cheap.
I also don't like how they squeezed the seats closer together. The Thomas Bus seats fit me, and large objects like instrument cases can fit between the seats. These International RE buses barely have enough room for me to squeeze in sideways, and my knees press against the seat back in front of me. The shorter seat backs don't give much upper-body support. It's more comfortable sitting sideways against the windows.
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news
Top Member
Canada
2951 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 04:03:31 AM
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Over 10,000 Kids Involved In School Bush Crashes Each Year In Ohio, USA
12 Jul 2007 - Medical News Today (press release)
"Compartmentalization may have been the best that could be offered 30 years ago, but this concept is no longer state-of-the-art," said Dr. Smith. "School bus crash tests show that lap-shoulder belts offer better protection to occupants. Congress stated in 1974 in the School Bus Safety Amendments that school transportation should be held to the highest level of safety because it involves protection of children. If the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration holds to that important mandate as it deliberates this topic this week in Washington, then the decision is clear - lap-shoulder seatbelts should be required on all newly manufactured school buses."
full story |
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news
Top Member
Canada
2951 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 04:53:36 AM
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Seat belts & buses: Virginia officials weigh in
July 11, 2007 - Lynchburg News and Advance, VA -
WASHINGTON - “For the most part, lap belts provided entertainment for the kids,” said Linda Farbry, director of transportation for Fairfax County, Va., public schools, who had been a school bus driver in the 1980s when the county tried them out. “They would use them as lariats to swing around and launch at other students.”
full story |
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JK
Top Member
USA
6913 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 08:29:31 AM
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“They would use them as lariats to swing around and launch at other students.”
And when full-grown adults noticed that misbehavior, what happened next? Adults making excuses does little to nothing to help correct children's misbehavior.
“We have had no known crashes where lap belts would have saved lives,” said Charles Hood, Florida’s director of school transportation, where lap belts have been required since 2000. “We did have one preventable death where if a high school student had been wearing a belt, she likely would not have been killed.”
Virtually sounds like just one child's life is not all that important a life to save these days in Florida. And I don't see many lives saved at all when use of a safety device is not enforced. A waste of money, in my opinion.
With lap belts alone, children’s bodies jackknife, smashing their heads into the seats in front of them and increasing the risk of neck injuries, Hersman said. Lap and shoulder straps are safer if they are worn properly - but more dangerous if not.
Why hasn't 20/20 and other investigative TV programs jumped on this horrific danger to children on school buses?
Try to tell this garbage to Arthur Yeager, an expert on seat belts on the school buses in New Jersey where lap belts have been in use on that state's school buses since 1992. His contact information:
Arthur L. Yeager, DMD, MMH
33 Park Gate Drive
Edison, NJ 08820
Phone 732/321-0423
Fax 732/321-0457
alyeager@aol.com
Ask your questions and include a copy of the story discussed here - that should get his attention.
Important to note, and what is missing in presentations from PTS agencies and other presentations to school bus drivers and presented in stories from the press is plainly stated in the, 'Guide, Congress, "Protecting Children - A Guide to Child Traffic Safety Laws," (December 2002):
"The studies from which these conclusions were drawn were specific to motor vehicles, not to school buses."
Another reason is that over 700 school districts big yellow buses equipped with seat belts as of 1998 have experienced 'no' occurrences of spinal injury, brain damage or death as a result of a student wearing a seat belt during a bus crash.
There are now thousands and thousands more school buses equipped with belts, and still nothing to report, except that a child not wearing an available safety device DIED as a result?
Sooner or later one child wearing a seat belt will end up severely injured or killed and would expect the industry will push that nationwide - SEE! See the harm seat belts can do!!! - - All while the most catastrophic injuries occur in crashes where seat belts are not installed or not used, as evidenced in this same story.
"Jeffrey Tsai, a North Carolina State University researcher, rode with students on buses outfitted with shoulder and lap belts two years after the state purchased 13. While half the elementary school students used them, he said, he found no middle or high school student with one on. “I asked them why, and they said the law didn’t require it,” Tsai said."
They let the kids decide? That's interesting
This story sadly reveals, more than anything else, the reality that belts and most any other safety device and system is useless where the adults involved do not have their act together helping their bus drivers keep kids safe, and also reveals so well who really is in charge of those school buses. Does not seem to be the adults involved.
Seat restraints seem the perfect tool to help separate the dysfunctional schools and systems from the functional. (jk)
Note: Free brochure for parents - "The seven highly effective steps to keeping your child safe" - Click Here for Link
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Post Check, Hostage Takeover, Bus Fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 07/12/2007 10:13:27 AM |
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news
Top Member
Canada
2951 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 06:29:28 AM
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Jul 12, 2007 - WCPO, OH
Experts Consider Seat Belts To Increase Seat Belt Safety
"Silly things, like how are you going to put a tall person and short person in a seatbelt," says Dr. Arthur Yeager, of the National Coalition for School Bus Safety. "Well, tell me, how do you put them in cars?"
full story |
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JK
Top Member
USA
6913 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 09:11:55 AM
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"But all of these safety devices might make the buses too expensive."
An amazing resurrection from the grave and an identical excuse used to argue against seat belts installed in motor vehicles back in the 1950's.
The school bus is not the space shuttle and need not be over engineered to achieve a restraint design that is reasonable in cost and still fulfill the compartmentalization design concept.
The incredible number of school buses in this country equipped with a variety of simple restraints has shown that reality more than just a possibility.
Over-engineering these safety devices seems a newer tactic to help discourage installation.
The newer buses include a capacity increase option that can cram the seats so close together that large students have a very difficult time sitting forward in their seats. There are a lot of large students these days.
But even here the industry's argument is revealing in that most reduced capacity claims come from previous over capacity actions which providers do not want to give up.
Establishing a false savings by way of overcapacity makes for a false argument, in my opinion. (jk)
Note: Free brochure for parents - "The seven highly effective steps to keeping your child safe" - Click Here for Link
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Post Check, Hostage Takeover, Bus Fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 07/13/2007 10:57:43 AM |
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JK
Top Member
USA
6913 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 10:47:46 AM
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It can be useful to find out what somebody at these sorts of meetings experienced first person. Here's an unedited report sent to me from from a New Jersey school buses seat belt advocate that attended the meeting and that I found interesting and revealing.
Report on July 11 NHTSA meeting on Three Point Seat Belts on School Buses
Based on the agenda and not unexpectedly, the meeting was stacked against those with our favorable position [for seat restraints] and heavily weighted toward the government and industry’s negativism. I was third from last speaker and Dr. Agran was very last. Steve Forman and his wife were allowed to present during the public session that followed.
Brief introductory remarks containing the usual platitudes re intense devotion to child safety and praising the “exemplary” safety of school buses were made by the US Sect. of Transportation, Mary Peters and by NHTSA Administrator Nicole Nason.
The only real consequence was the fact that Administrator Nason remained to Chair the meeting and was there to listen when “our side” made its presentations.
First came NHTSA’s presentation with the usual half truths like “compartmentalization works well in severe frontal crashes” neglecting to mention that it utterly fails in side impacts and rollovers and gee whiz figures like only six are killed inside school buses while 42,000 are killed in other automotive crashes, failing to point out that the 42,000 include 12,000 pedestrians (their school bus numbers do not), that the 42,000 occur over 365 days while school buses are on the road only half the time averaging 180 days, that fatalities are greater in July and August, over weekends and nighttime hours when school buses do not operate.
When I accepted the position on the panel I thought I would need to counter the same arguments from 30 years ago when the school bus standards were being developed. I was shocked to hear the arguments from 40 years ago when consideration of seat belts in cars was under being contemplated. A representative from Canada actually started her presentation with a slide of a man who had the shape of a sumo wrestler next to a child and asked how can you have seat belts that fit both? Answer, we have done OK and saved lives for decades. Most reiterated that kids were safer without belts. One repeated the old, never proven saw that kids would use as weapons, vandalize, hook them across aisles, etc.
A recurring theme was loss of seating capacity because the current 39” seats, purportedly accommodating 3 children each, 6 across each row would have to be reduced to 3-2 seating with only 5 across. As a result costs would skyrocket because more buses would be needed, more divers needed, more maintenance costing untold millions or have busing cut.
Worst was the Thomas bus representative who used as example elementary school kids buses carefully neglecting to mention that kids from the 4th grade on don’t fit on a 39”seat. (Dr. Agran later pointed out that this was based on 20 year old data and children are much larger today) His estimate was in the 40% seat loss range. Actually, later on, those with actual experience with the 3 point belts reported an actual increase in seating capacity for middle school and high school children because they are currently assigned 2 to a seat, 4 across and now the buses can accommodate 5 across a 25% increase in capacity, fewer buses and less cost!
I had anticipated these arguments and did my best to refute them. Dr. Agran was excellent in presenting the Academy of Pediatrics favorable position as were Mr. And Mrs. Forman in their description of the experiences as the result of a crash of their daughter’s bus and subsequent efforts to get belts on Texas buses.
Perhaps the best thing I can say is that Administrator Nason was there to hear our presentations. With such a large agency to run, with so many areas of responsibility, I am sure she hears little of NHTSA’s inadequacy regarding school buses and is comforted by her staff when it comes to issues that we are concerned with. Whether it results in any action is always a question, but now it cannot be said that she has heard ‘the other side”
Arthur L. Yeager, DMD, MMH
33 Park Gate Drive
Edison, NJ 08820
Phone 732/321-0423
Fax 732/321-0457
alyeager@aol.com
Note: Free brochure for parents - "The seven highly effective steps to keeping your child safe" - Click Here for Link
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Post Check, Hostage Takeover, Bus Fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 07/13/2007 12:48:09 PM |
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news
Top Member
Canada
2951 Posts |
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maddoxdy
Active Member
United States
35 Posts |
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Sandra (Ennis) Nunn
Top Member
Canada
1179 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 11:33:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by maddoxdy
Has anybody read about the Oct 2002 report of the results of actual crash sled tests of different restraint systems?
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/departments/nrd-11/SchoolBus.html
It has some pretty eye opening numbers.
Doug
The report says, in part:
"The use of the combination lap/shoulder belts could provide some benefit, unless misused. Lap/shoulder belts can be misused and NHTSA's testing showed that serious neck injury and perhaps abdominal injury could result when lap/shoulder belts are misused."
Compartmentalization is not misused? What about overcrowding, standees and children who don't sit properly on the seats? Does NHTSA's testing of compartmentalization include standees, three large children per one bench seat, children hanging out of the seats? Have there been large numbers of children seriously hurt through misuse of the lap/shoulder belts on small school buses?
(sn) |
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JK
Top Member
USA
6913 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 2:11:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandra (Ennis) Nunn
... Compartmentalization is not misused? What about overcrowding, standees and children who don't sit properly on the seats? Does NHTSA's testing of compartmentalization include standees, three large children per one bench seat, children hanging out of the seats? Have there been large numbers of children seriously hurt through misuse of the lap/shoulder belts on small school buses?
(sn)
Tends to reveal that the issue is not seat belts at all, or so much cost when not over engineering these devices. Tens of thousands of school buses are equipped with lap and other devices where somehow cost was overcome.
Press stories, more than anything else, simply seem to reveal the reality that belts and most any other safety device and system is useless where the adults involved do not have their act together helping their bus drivers keep kids safe, and also reveals so well who really is in charge of those school buses. Too often this simply does not seem to be the adults involved.
Seat restraints may turn out to be the perfect tool to help separate the dysfunctional schools and systems from the functional.
The sled tests, according to some reports contrary to government and industry reports, did not fair so well concerning the unbelted dummies.
The 2002 Large School Bus Crashworthiness report showed that three point lap/shoulder belts systems would reduce fatalities and injuries. Here are some facts from the study:
66% of the unbelted test dummies in the full-scale frontal crash test died, and 50% of the unbelted test dummies in sled crash tests died. None of the three point restraint test dummies suffered a fatal injury. NONE.
"Three point safety belt systems would reduce injuries by 40 to 75% and fatalities by a much higher number." ~Jim Freed, Midwest Regional Director, National Coalition for School Bus Safety, Aug, 31 2005
But keep in mind that more injuries happen during the normal operation of the school bus than during crashes, another little known fact the industry fails to mention.
When an unexpected bump or a sudden turn is necessary on a bus not equipped with belts and proper use required - and a bus driver is about to be blamed for any injuries - then the lack of seat belts on the bus or lack of use required may provide the bus driver a valid defense. (jk)
Note: Free brochure for parents - "The seven highly effective steps to keeping your child safe" - Click Here for Link
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Post Check, Hostage Takeover, Bus Fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
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maddoxdy
Active Member
United States
35 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 6:15:37 PM
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quote:
66% of the unbelted test dummies in the full-scale frontal crash test died, and 50% of the unbelted test dummies in sled crash tests died. None of the three point restraint test dummies suffered a fatal injury. NONE.
I'm sorry, where in the report did you read this? I just went over the report again and I can't find that quote.
Doug
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
3880 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 6:48:23 PM
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I can be fine with L/S belts, but why does anyone still advocate lap belts when these tests CLEARLY show they DO cause more injuries? All of the charts indicate higher trauma when using a lap belt, so why does anyone dare advocate them as an "at least"?
I can imagine L/S belts will be required soon. I can live with that in my small district that will support their driver, but what about anyone else who has that liability placed on them? In Michigan, the fine for anyone in the vehicle not wearing a seat belt is placed on the driver. Imagine $50 x 81 passengers...the law amendments in the works to requrie seat belts do not include anything to prevent this issue. JK's solutions are a bit too much for most administrators to aspire to, so I hope these same seat belt advocates aren't leaving the school bus drivers high and dry once they get their seat belts bolted in. |
Edited by - Thomas Ford 85-16 on 07/15/2007 6:50:14 PM |
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JK
Top Member
USA
6913 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 9:20:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Ford 85-16
... JK's solutions are a bit too much for most administrators to aspire to, so I hope these same seat belt advocates aren't leaving the school bus drivers high and dry once they get their seat belts bolted in.
What advocacy group do you think is going to do that? Do you think the state PTS will act on your behalf in specific regard to that issue? In states where bus drivers themselves fail to advocate for student proper use and responsibility to buckle, as well as return the belts to their unused state, pretty much can guarantee no one else is going to do that. The game is to get restriants required and use voluntary -- until like in Florida, where a state-of-the-art bus crashed killing a student when belts were available but use was voluntary. At that point the new game begins. In the meantime belts are simply guaranteed to be useless and a waste of money where use is not required by at least the district. Drivers spending their energy fighting belts remain distracted from the real issues facing them. Belts are on the way - use and responsibility issues be what may. (jk)
Note: Free brochure for parents - "The seven highly effective steps to keeping your child safe" - Click Here for Link
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Post Check, Hostage Takeover, Bus Fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.
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Edited by - JK on 07/15/2007 9:22:10 PM |
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JK
Top Member
USA
6913 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 10:03:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Ford 85-16
I can be fine with L/S belts, but why does anyone still advocate lap belts when these tests CLEARLY show they DO cause more injuries? All of the charts indicate higher trauma when using a lap belt, so why does anyone dare advocate them as an "at least"?
My understanding is those so-called indicators refer to motor vehicles, not school buses.
What is missing in presentations from PTS agencies and other presentations to school bus drivers and presented in stories from the press is plainly stated on page-22 in the PDF Guide, (Pg-32 in the Document's 'Go To Page' finder):
"The studies from which these conclusions were drawn were specific to motor vehicles, not to school buses."
There are an abundance of University and other studies that flat dispute industry theories about belts dangers on the school buses.
And, of course, over 700 school districts as of 1998 had no such catastrophes. I really do not think actual catastrophes of the magnitude promoted involving belts on the school buses killing and maiming kids would get by the press - do you?
But kids are experiencing horrific deaths in unbelted buses. The numbers are interesting: 85% of the unbelted kids are killed in bus crashes, and 25% are the belted in bus drivers. Not much you can do, belted or unbelted when a truck, a tree or some other object comes through you windshield.
How many kids have died while wearing belts on the tens of thousands of school buses using these devices? Can't find anything on that.
I believe Jim Freed with the National Coalition for School Bus Safety (http://www.ncsbs.org/) was referring to the 2002 Large School Bus Crashworthiness report when he made his comments Aug, 31 2005. Been too long for me to remember but NCSBS would remember. Contact them for an answer.
Want some idea of how support will be with seat belts? How is support now at helping to keep calm, safe environments on the buses for children and hostile-free workplaces for the bus drivers? (jk)
Click Here to download NCSBS presentation.
Note: Free brochure for parents - "The seven highly effective steps to keeping your child safe" - Click Here for Link
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Post Check, Hostage Takeover, Bus Fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 07/15/2007 10:08:52 PM |
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news
Top Member
Canada
2951 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 08:01:27 AM
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FOUR REASONS NOT TO PUT SEAT BELTS IN SCHOOL BUSES
Hartford Courant - July 16, 2007
As a retired school bus driver, I feel qualified to comment on why school buses should not have seat belts.
full story |
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
3880 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 7:17:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JK
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Ford 85-16
I can be fine with L/S belts, but why does anyone still advocate lap belts when these tests CLEARLY show they DO cause more injuries? All of the charts indicate higher trauma when using a lap belt, so why does anyone dare advocate them as an "at least"?
My understanding is those so-called indicators refer to motor vehicles, not school buses.
The link provided by maddoxdy is about sled tests for school bus seats, and they charts indicate higher injuries with lap belts than compartmentalization. This same result is shown in the report that IMMI links to on their website. I don't want lap belts, and I'm afraid they might get installed as a "half way" when seat belt advocates aren't so willing to pay for a proper system. |
Mike's Bus Yard - http://buses.zwebpages.com - Since 1999
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JK
Top Member
USA
6913 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 10:18:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Ford 85-16
... The link provided by maddoxdy is about sled tests for school bus seats, and they charts indicate higher injuries with lap belts than compartmentalization. This same result is shown in the report that IMMI links to on their website. I don't want lap belts, and I'm afraid they might get installed as a "half way" when seat belt advocates aren't so willing to pay for a proper system.
There were over seventy separate sled tests that studies draw their conclusions from. The person to find out where his numbers came from is at the source of the quote: Jim Freed with the National Coalition for School Bus Safety (http://www.ncsbs.org/)
Misquotes or part quotes not in context have shown up before. Deborah Hersman, spokesperson for the National Transportation safety board (NTSB), which investigates accidents, is misquoted on occasion. She generally favors seat belts - especially 3-point restraints. Readers might not know that from some of the press quotes credited to her.
It is possible the press misquoted what Jim Freed said, although I tend doubt that at this point. (jk)
Note: Free brochure for parents - "The seven highly effective steps to keeping your child safe" - Click Here for Link
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Post Check, Hostage Takeover, Bus Fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.
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Sandra (Ennis) Nunn
Top Member
Canada
1179 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 05:03:16 AM
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I did a little searching and found that in 2005, Jim Freed wrote to the Montgomery Blair High School's online newspaper (http://silverchips.mbhs.edu/inside.php?sid=5430) and said, in part:
Jim Freed (jfreed1@kc.rr.com) 6/6/2005, 09:45 AM
I urge you to get a copy of the 2003 Large School Bus Crash Summary from the NHSTA and look for yourself at how effective properly (and improperly) worn lap/shoulder belts were in reducing head, neck and back injury. Also note that the test results for the full scale frontal impact (with the unrestrained test dummies placed in "perfect" seating positions indicate that 4 of the 6 dummies would have DIED of head trauma.
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Sandra (Ennis) Nunn
Top Member
Canada
1179 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 05:16:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JK
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Ford 85-16
I can be fine with L/S belts, but why does anyone still advocate lap belts when these tests CLEARLY show they DO cause more injuries? All of the charts indicate higher trauma when using a lap belt, so why does anyone dare advocate them as an "at least"?
My understanding is those so-called indicators refer to motor vehicles, not school buses.
I did find reference to "automotive crashes" in the Large School Bus Safety Restraint Evaluation-Phase II 18th ESV report (http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-01/esv/esv18/CD/Files/18ESV-000313.pdf) in relation to lap belt and abdominal loading:
Concern about Abdominal Loading with Lap Belt
Restraint Systems -
When properly positioned, the lap
belt system restrains an occupant by loading them
across the hard pelvic structure. When used in
conjunction with a shoulder belt, a portion of the load
is also distributed across the upper torso. When a lap
belt restraint is improperly positioned, due to
improper fit or misuse, this load produced by the belt
can be transmitted to the occupant through the soft
abdomen, rather than across the hard structure of the
pelvis. This has been shown to produce serious-to fatal
injuries in automotive crashes.
Current frontal crash test dummies are not designed
to measure abdominal forces, and there are no criteria
currently available to predict injury if such forces
were determined. While some efforts were made to
measure these loads in the first series of sled tests, the
results were largely inconclusive. The data from
these tests were reported in NHTSA’s April 2002
Report to Congress, “School Bus Safety:
Crashworthiness Research” and are available on
NHTSA’s Vehicle Crash Test Database.
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JK
Top Member
USA
6913 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 06:36:33 AM
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Who are they and how did they help to pass the Texas law requiring seat belts on school buses?
Click Here
The Cost of Just One Accident
School bus injuries video
If You Don't Want Seat Belts On Your School Buses Don't Kill Kids
Note: Free brochure for parents - "The seven highly effective steps to keeping your child safe" - Click Here for Link
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Post Check, Hostage Takeover, Bus Fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 07/17/2007 5:29:50 PM |
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news
Top Member
Canada
2951 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2007 : 05:36:51 AM
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Is the school bus due for safety makeover?
Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - Richmond Times Dispatch, VA
In Virginia, the chances of your child dying on a school bus are one-third as great as being fatally struck by lightning, according to government statistics.
full story |
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maddoxdy
Active Member
United States
35 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2007 : 2:51:24 PM
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quote:
In Virginia, the chances of your child dying on a school bus are one-third as great as being fatally struck by lightning, according to government statistics.
How come they never use an apples to apples comparison, such as your child is 9 times as likely to die traveling to school in your own car as riding on a school bus?
Doug
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JK
Top Member
USA
6913 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2007 : 3:07:14 PM
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Because the reporter probably wanted to use something more familiar that might identify with the general public. Could have used bathroom related or drowning deaths in the same way. (jk)
Note: Free brochure for parents - "The seven highly effective steps to keeping your child safe" - Click Here for Link
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Post Check, Hostage Takeover, Bus Fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
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Sandra (Ennis) Nunn
Top Member
Canada
1179 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2007 : 3:36:10 PM
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From the American Red Cross, June 23, 2003, Lightning Awareness Week Urges Preparedness:
“There’s a better chance of being struck by lightning.” It’s a phrase used to describe low-risk occurrences, but the common saying undermines the dangers of lightning, which annually claims more lives than tornadoes and hurricanes.
(sn) |
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news
Top Member
Canada
2951 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 03:37:02 AM
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School buses finally getting seat belts
July 24, 2007 - Chicago Sun-Times, IL
New federal guidelines due this fall are expected to propose voluntary standards for the use of belts. That's a shift in long-standing policy.
full story |
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John Farr
Top Member
USA
642 Posts |
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Sandra (Ennis) Nunn
Top Member
Canada
1179 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 05:06:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by John Farr
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-01/esv/esv17/proceed/00158.pdf
Conditions tested: frontal crash only, compartmentalization; lap belt, l/s belt.
Unbelted passengers behind belted passengers in a school bus can result in major injuries in a frontal crash.
From the above document:
When an unbelted 50th male
dummy was seated behind either a 5th female or
another 50th male dummy, the unbelted dummy could
override the seat back to strike the head or back of the
dummy seated in front of it. When this occurred, a
high HIC value was typically observed. This tendency
to override the seat back did not occur with dummies
that were restrained with lap belt or lap/shoulder belt
restraint systems. The high back seat design of the
lap/shoulder belt seating systems also provided
additional protection to the restrained occupant by
limiting the possibility of a rear impact by an
unrestrained occupant.
(sn) |
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Sandra (Ennis) Nunn
Top Member
Canada
1179 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 05:19:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandra (Ennis) Nunn
quote:
Originally posted by John Farr
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-01/esv/esv17/proceed/00158.pdf
Conditions tested: frontal crash only, compartmentalization; lap belt, l/s belt.
Unbelted passengers behind belted passengers in a school bus can result in major injuries in a frontal crash.
From the above document:
When an unbelted 50th male
dummy was seated behind either a 5th female or
another 50th male dummy, the unbelted dummy could
override the seat back to strike the head or back of the
dummy seated in front of it. When this occurred, a
high HIC value was typically observed. This tendency
to override the seat back did not occur with dummies
that were restrained with lap belt or lap/shoulder belt
restraint systems. The high back seat design of the
lap/shoulder belt seating systems also provided
additional protection to the restrained occupant by
limiting the possibility of a rear impact by an
unrestrained occupant.
(sn)
Dear Mr. Farr,
I find it helps me to understand better if the pertinent section from the document is quoted. I'm not sure if I provided that with the above quote.
Sandy |
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JK
Top Member
USA
6913 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 11:12:38 AM
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No rule, but Chicago does it
Mandate or no mandate, the Chicago Public Schools have had seat belts on buses since 1975, spokesman Mike Vaughn said. "It makes students safer," he said.
Click Here for full story
Over 700 small and large school districts not mandated with tens of thousands of school buses equipped with lap belts. Simple lap belts and use enforced helps save lives and especially helps reduce catastrophic injuries.
My concern is the actual self-destructive nature of some systems involving these devices - to me "voluntary" is the buzzword for virtually a guaranteed waste of resources.
I do not mind my bus with or without seat belts, and would prefer not equipped unless use is required and enforced. (jk)
Note: Free brochure for parents - "The seven highly effective steps to keeping your child safe" - Click Here for Link
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Post Check, Hostage Takeover, Bus Fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.
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Edited by - JK on 07/24/2007 11:16:14 AM |
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Sandra (Ennis) Nunn
Top Member
Canada
1179 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 6:46:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandra (Ennis) Nunn
quote:
Originally posted by Sandra (Ennis) Nunn
quote:
Originally posted by John Farr
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-01/esv/esv17/proceed/00158.pdf
Conditions tested: frontal crash only, compartmentalization; lap belt, l/s belt.
Unbelted passengers behind belted passengers in a school bus can result in major injuries in a frontal crash.
From the above document:
When an unbelted 50th male
dummy was seated behind either a 5th female or
another 50th male dummy, the unbelted dummy could
override the seat back to strike the head or back of the
dummy seated in front of it. When this occurred, a
high HIC value was typically observed. This tendency
to override the seat back did not occur with dummies
that were restrained with lap belt or lap/shoulder belt
restraint systems. The high back seat design of the
lap/shoulder belt seating systems also provided
additional protection to the restrained occupant by
limiting the possibility of a rear impact by an
unrestrained occupant.
(sn)
Dear Mr. Farr,
I find it helps me to understand better if the pertinent section from the document is quoted. I'm not sure if I provided that with the above quote.
Sandy
From National Highway Traffic Safety Administration document LARGE SCHOOL BUS SAFETY RESTRAINT EVALUATION - PHASE II:
pg. 6
A potential issue raised by the installation of
lap/shoulder belt restraint systems is the additional
loading that is placed on the seat back by the
shoulder anchor portion of the restraint system. The
inertial loading due to the torso of a restrained
passenger can increase the amount of forward
deflection of the seat back, significantly reducing its
ability to safely restrain (via compartmentalization)
an unbelted passenger seated behind a lap/shoulder
belt restrained passenger. Current regulations require
that safety restraint systems maintain the ability to
provide passive protection or restraint
(compartmentalization in bus seat design) to the
vehicle’s occupants. Increasing the structural
strength of the seat back can address this problem,
but the additional rigidity of the seat back may
present a potential risk of increased injury to the
“unrestrained” passenger. This could be particularly
significant if the seat forward of the passenger is
unoccupied since the seat back, with no additional
torso loading to help deflect the seat back upon
impact, may be overly rigid for effective passive
protection.
Initial sled tests indicated that the stiffer seat backs of
these designs could increase the HIC15 injury
criterion significantly for the unbelted passenger.
The C.E.White Co. provided a second prototype seat
design with modified foam padding in the seat back
that significantly lowered the HIC15 values in
subsequent testing. A second lap/shoulder belt
design strategy to address this seat back issue was
developed by Indiana Mills Manufacturing Inc.
(IMMI). This seat design isolated the shoulder belt
anchor points from the seat back by creating a
second, or “inner”, frame used to anchor the restraint
system. Figure 14 is an image of a sled test of the
IMMI seat. The inner seat back frame can be seen in
this image as it was pulled away from the “outer”
frame of the seat back by the torso loading of the
restrained dummies, as it is designed to do. The
“outer” frame remained in position to provide a
padded impact surface for the two unbelted 50th
percentile adult male dummies seated behind the
restrained dummies in this test.
pg. 10-11
3) Lap/Shoulder Belt Restraint System
e) The stiffer seat back, required for anchoring
the shoulder belt upper anchorage, could
present a potential problem for the unbelted
occupant(s) seated behind an occupant who
is secured with the lap/shoulder belt
restraint.
f) Stiffer seat back design issues may be
addressed by proper design and/or padding
of the seat.
(sn) |
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New safety rule to require taller sb seats
