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80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
 Posted - 03/11/2007 : 11:21:46 AM
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The New Media Department of The Post and Courier
SUNDAY, MARCH 11, 2007 8:43 AM
School bus Breakdown
Why S.C.'s public school buses are the nation's oldest, most polluting and least safe
BY RON MENCHACA AND MINDY B. HAGEN
Version with school bus image @
http://www.postandcourier.com/assets/webPages/departmental/news/Stories.aspx?section=localnews&tableId=134165&pubDate=3/11/2007
The Post and Courier
The school buses that South Carolina's children ride every weekday are so old that when they no longer run the state cannibalizes them for spare parts to keep the rest of its aging fleet rolling. One of the last times the state sold its used buses was about a decade ago. The only bidders were some cash-wielding buyers from Mexico.
Two years ago South Carolina was forced to replace part of its 5,701-bus fleet. The state didn't pick new buses with modern safety features. Instead, it bought 73 used school buses from a Kentucky school district that sold them because they were too old.
South Carolina's public school bus fleet is the oldest, most polluting and least safe in the nation, an investigation by The Post and Courier reveals.
Why?
Because the state legislature has failed to create a system to regularly replace buses as they age.
That forces school districts across the state, from Charleston to Columbia to Greenville, to shuttle children on many of the same school buses that carried their parents.
The last time the state bought a substantial number of new buses was in 1995, when it purchased more than 2,000. Those buses are now 12 years old and
starting to require expensive engine and transmission replacements, but state bus officials still call them the "new buses."
State Rep. Bob Walker, chairman of the House Education and Public Works Committee, said the main issue is money. He said the legislature has been reluctant to commit to a replacement plan that would lock it into buying new buses every year regardless of its ability to pay if the state has a tight financial year.
The failure to create a regular replacement system leaves taxpayers facing a financial time bomb that is set to explode when the 1995 buses, and the nearly 3,000 older school buses, can't be kept on the road. Based on an estimated cost of $72,000 for a new school bus, the state faces a $360 million bill that could come due at any time.
The state sends children to school on buses that average 14 years in age, many with more than 400,000 miles.
South Carolina's convicts enjoy the more modern comfort and safety of prison buses that average about 10 years in age. That's because the state Corrections Department and most state agencies, except the education department and two small agencies are advised to replace their buses after age 10 or when the cost of upkeep outstrips their value.
The newspaper's investigation shows that the legislature's failure to provide a similar system for school buses costs taxpayers money and places the state's children in unnecessary danger:
--Aged buses regularly burst into flames when leaking gas, oil or hydraulic fluids contact frayed electrical wires. Take the May 2006 case of a Berkeley County bus from which 60 elementary and high school students barely escaped as flames engulfed the bus.
--Nearly 5,000 of the state's school buses - almost the entire fleet - are already at or past the industry-recommended retirement age of 12 to 15 years.
--Most of the state's school buses lack many state-of-the-art safety features such as anti-lock brakes and alarms that signal when a bus is backing up.
--Children unnecessarily risk injury when aged buses break down on busy highways. The state recorded nearly 12,000 bus breakdowns during the 2005-06 school year. That's nearly 67 bus breakdowns every school day.
--Bus breakdowns also mean that every day hundreds of children miss out on valuable classroom time. The state estimates that 1,500 students arrived late each school day last year as a result of bus problems.
--These same buses are among those that state emergency management officials have designated for possible use to evacuate coastal residents in the path of a major hurricane.
--Costs to keep the buses on the road have soared. The state spent nearly $13 million last school year on school bus maintenance. Nearly one-third of that amount was used to replace worn out engines and transmissions.
--The state's bus fleet recently was ranked as the most polluting in the country in a national survey of school buses. Many of the state's buses are so old that they fail to meet federal clean air standards, spewing hazardous emissions into the air and contributing to health problems in children. The aging engines on the state's oldest buses also cost taxpayers more because of poor fuel efficiency.
Safe, but for how long?
Forty-two school children have died in school bus-related accidents in the state since 1969. Six of those were riding on a bus at the time of the accident. The rest involved children who were passengers in other vehicles or who were struck while standing or walking outside of a bus. In 2005, a 4-year-old boy in Dorchester County was killed when a school bus accidently ran over him just seconds after he got off the bus.
South Carolina school buses were involved in about 500 accidents during the last school year, but there is no way to know how many were due in some way to wear or age.
That's because the state's accident investigations focus on whether the bus driver was at fault and don't automatically take into account bus age, mileage or maintenance issues that may have contributed, said John Dozier, who oversees school bus safety for the state Department of Education.
Dozier said if a bus driver involved in an accident said the brakes failed to work properly, the state would determine only whether the brakes worked, not how well they worked.
Maintenance records show buses frequently develop brake problems.
In August 2002, for example, 15 students were evacuated from a bus in Williamsburg County after the brake pads wore away and metal-to-metal contact sparked a fire.
Breakdowns put children at risk
Most parents trust that when their children board school buses they won't step off until they reach their scheduled stop. But when a bus engine conks out or smoke appears inside a bus, a driver's first duty is to get the kids off and moved to as safe a place as possible. Such breakdowns rarely occur in convenient places, forcing drivers to shepherd children to spare buses, often along narrow road shoulders or amid rush-hour traffic.
Greenville bus shop supervisor Melody Bullman discourages bus drivers from using Interstate 385, the city's major thoroughfare. "There's no safe place for the kids to sit and wait, or for the mechanics to work," she said.
Mac Flood, bus transportation director for the Berkeley County School District, said herding large groups of children along the roadside is an accident waiting to happen. "That's not good to do. Thank God we haven't gotten any kids hurt, but it increases the potential," he said.
Flood said he's also concerned about the children left waiting at their stops for a bus that's broken down. "The longer we leave them sitting at the stop, the more chance there is for an abduction or of a child running into traffic."
Bullman said most bus shops have a limited number of spare buses to draw from when buses break down. "If there's no spare bus available, they might have to wait until a different bus completes its route, comes back and then is sent out again to pick them up."
The state has no record of any child being injured as a result of transferring to a spare bus following a breakdown.
So far, injuries are confined to academics when children arrive late to school. The unpredictability of the state's bus fleet creates havoc for educators and parents who strive to keep students on schedule. When students on a delayed bus finally arrive at school, they often enter a classroom where lessons are underway.
At Berkeley County's Macedonia Middle School, Principal Janie Langley grows frustrated when the state's bus system works against education. "We can't extend the day when buses come late and kids miss the instruction," Langley said. "These buses are just the tail that wags the education dog in this state."
Teachers can't administer some state-mandated tests until all their students arrive. That leaves Langley and other principals anxiously pacing near school entrances, wondering when late buses will arrive so testing can begin.
It's not just delayed test time that makes Langley nervous. She estimates that children arrive late to her school due to bus problems almost every other day. That's just one school out of more than 1,000 elementary, middle and high schools around the state.
"I hold my breath when the buses go out, and I'm so relieved when they come back," she said.
Buses for hurricane evacuation
Even families without school-age children could find themselves dependent on the state's aging buses.
State emergency management officials responsible for coordinating the evacuation of residents in the path of a hurricane or other natural disaster have plans that call for deploying the state's school bus fleet to help move people to safety.
Lowcountry residents who experienced or witnessed the botched evacuation for
Hurricane Floyd in 1999 and remember the miles-long lines of broken down and out-of-gas vehicles along the highways might be reluctant to board a decades-old, gas-guzzling bus fleet with a long history of maintenance problems.
State Emergency Management Division officials say they are not responsible for ensuring that the bus fleet is up to the task. That's the Department of Education's job, agency spokesman John Legare said. "As for the equipment and upgrading that equipment, that's really more their issue than ours. We'll take what we can get when we are trying to move people."
Buses lack safety features
Many of the state's buses lack basic modern safety features such as back-up alarms, adequate heating, larger windshields, extra mirrors and fire-resistant seat covers.
For example, state buses purchased before 2000 don't have alarms that alert drivers to check for sleeping students once they complete their routes. Buses built before 1999 don't have anti-lock brakes, which help prevent skidding on wet and icy roads.
Nearly 2,500 of the state's buses are so old that they lack roof and window exits that could enable children to escape a burning bus.
Most parents don't know that bus age, mileage and safety features vary widely from one bus to the next.
Laurie Harth's two young sons ride a bus to and from Summerville's Newington Elementary. She assumed all of the state's buses were new and was taken aback to learn that the bus her children ride has been on the road since 1988, meaning it lacks many basic safety features.
"As a parent, it freaks me out."
Scheduling bus replacement
The average school bus in America is about 9 years old, or 5 years newer than the average South Carolina bus.
Many states retire school buses or use them as spares after they reach a certain age or mileage. States such as Delaware, Alabama and Kentucky yank their older buses out of service early enough that they fetch top dollar in a thriving used-school-bus market, where money-strapped foreign governments shop for deals.
South Carolina's Department of Juvenile Justice and the state's School for the Deaf and the Blind have far more modern fleets than the education department. Their average buses are 10 years old and 6 years old, respectively.
Katie Rice, spokeswoman for the School for the Deaf and the Blind, said her agency will soon retire its two oldest buses - 1995 models. "We have two new buses coming in so we will give the two old ones to the Department of Education."
The state vehicle replacement guidelines that ensure public money is not wasted on clunkers exempts the state Department of Education's buses. South Carolina law does not stipulate when a school bus must be retired. Nor does it require the General Assembly to set aside money for new school buses.
As a result, the state sporadically buys new buses. It purchases none or a trickle in tight budget years. Then, in occasional bursts of desperation, it buys hundreds at a pop. This feast-or-famine approach concentrates risk in a single model year of buses. If a particular bus model develops a mechanical problem - as happened last year when the state temporarily sidelined all 2,000 of its 1995 model buses because of a fire risk - a substantial chunk of the fleet could be out of service.
At the same time, the state risks paying too much for new buses because manufacturers are more likely to provide cost breaks if they know the state will be back in the market the next year, according to one school bus expert.
Still, lawmakers repeatedly fail to adopt a bus replacement plan, and the average age of the buses continues to climb, more than doubling in the past 12 years.
Today, the average state school bus has logged about 200,000 miles, more than double the average mileage a decade ago.
Some of the oldest buses have more than half a million miles as they enter their third decade hauling yet another generation of South Carolina's children.
State Rep. Roland Smith of Aiken County introduced a bill this year that would establish a 12-year school bus replacement cycle. In 2000 Smith served on a state committee that reviewed the state's school bus bidding process. The committee found instances in which the state paid more for school buses than other states because it added features that Smith and other members considered wasteful. He recalled a fuss over the state's request for a special interior beige paint that tacked an additional $300 onto the cost of each bus.
"There are lingering feelings that we are paying too much per bus," Smith said. "But we're behind. We realize that we have to address this issue."
Deja vu
The House bill recently proposed by Smith and Walker marks the second time in two years that the legislature has considered a bus replacement bill, but the need for a bus replacement plan has been discussed for more than a decade.
The original proposal called for a 12-year replacement cycle, but some lawmakers felt that was too short and tacked on three more years to squeeze more life out of the fleet.
So mechanics keep expectations low. Kenny Bligen, assistant supervisor of the Charleston County bus shop, said the sooner the state adopts a replacement plan, the sooner it can put its oldest buses out to pasture. "Hopefully, in a few years, we'll be out of the '84 and '85 buses altogether."
School officials hope this is the year the state adopts a bus replacement plan. If that happens, the state still faces a major problem of its own making.
The state's purchase of more than 2,000 school buses in 1995 - a deal that still ranks nationally as the largest single public bus purchase ever - only delayed the inevitable. The state faces a looming maintenance crisis as its 1995 buses, more than one-third of its fleet, reach retirement age at the same time. Bus mechanics and shop supervisors across the state say the 1995 buses are fading fast.
A replacement engine for a 1995 Thomas bus can cost $10,000, far more than the bus would fetch on the used market.
On a recent afternoon, Beaufort County bus shop supervisor Robert Hoffman was down to one spare transmission for a 1995 bus. Later that day, a wrecker pulled up to the shop towing another broken down bus. It would take Hoffman's last spare transmission.
"We are getting to that period when they are going to start falling apart," he said.
Good advice
Lawmakers have overlooked school buses for decades despite warnings and recommendations that they act immediately.
In 2001, the Legislative Audit Council concluded that the state faces "reduced assurance that the buses can be operated in a safe and reliable manner" if it fails to start phasing out old buses.
In the six years since that report was written, the odometer on the average state bus has accumulated an additional 100,000 miles.
The state Department of Education hired a consultant to review South Carolina's bus-buying practices a few years ago. The California-based expert, Jim Wilkins, has helped local and state bus officials all over the country improve their operations. South Carolina ignored his recommendation that the state adopt a bus replacement plan. Wilkins said the lack of a dedicated bus-buying plan also costs taxpayers more because bus manufacturers would offer better deals if they knew the state soon would buy again.
In a recent telephone interview with The Post and Courier, Wilkins expressed surprise that the state had not followed his advice and had resorted to buying another state's hand-me-down buses.
Even those who favor scrapping the state-operated bus system altogether in favor of privatization say replacement cycles are a basic requirement for any fleet. During the 2003-04 legislative session, the General Assembly set up a committee to study bus privatization. In January 2005, its members recommended a median bus age of seven to 10 years.
That same year, the state bought just 50 new buses, not even enough to replace all of the buses in the fleet that have driven more than 400,000 miles.
Some lawmakers fear that more delay in addressing the bus crisis could have deadly results. If a child is seriously injured or killed in a bus accident as a result of its age, people would point fingers at the General Assembly, Walker said.
"Everybody will say you should have done something."
Reach Ron Menchaca at 937-5724 or rmenchaca@postandcourier.com. Reach Mindy B. Hagen at 937-5433 or mhagen@postandcourier.com.
This article was printed via the web on 3/11/2007 1:09:29 PM . This article
appeared in The Post and Courier and updated online at Charleston.net on Sunday, March 11, 2007.
http://www.postandcourier.com/assets/webPages/departmental/news/default_pf.aspx?NEWSID=134165 |
Edited by - 80-RE4 on 03/14/2007 10:11:30 PM
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Jake
Top Member
USA
3527 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2007 : 2:21:22 PM
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I see nothing wrong with the 73 Ward Senators we sold them. They all have 4 exit windows, 2 roof hatches, a side door, 72 cap., all you need is a white roof/ strobe/ and a cross arm and their ya go.
~Jake~ |
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CPCSC_TD
Top Member
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2007 : 2:22:45 PM
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AmTran
Thanks for the awesome article. What a damn shame their state is in.
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03CV200
Top Member
United States
740 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2007 : 3:34:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by 92WardSenatorFE
I see nothing wrong with the 73 Ward Senators we sold them. They all have 4 exit windows, 2 roof hatches, a side door, 72 cap., all you need is a white roof/ strobe/ and a cross arm and their ya go.
Its not just a matter of safety features, but the structural integrity of the bus. I don't care what anyone says, but a 1985 bus has lost some of its "durability' over the years regardless of how its maintained. Here in my district, a route bus can't be over 10 years old, a spare over 15. |
-Dave |
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CPCSC_TD
Top Member
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2007 : 4:23:21 PM
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If the bus was maintained, the structure shoudl be sound. Look at the Crowns and Gilligs.
None of us are engineers. If you don't see rust in the rain drip rails, odds are good the inner panels are safe and corrosion free- engineer taught me that- one that used to work for Crown. |
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80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2007 : 4:26:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CPCSC_TD
AmTran
Thanks for the awesome article. What a damn shame their state is in.
No problem.
I don't understand how the state of SC can allow these children to ride on these buses while the state prisoners are riding on buses that are safer, it doesn't make sense.
Some of these buses don't have back up beepers and other safety devices.
Something tells me that the lawmakers don't have children that ride on the school buses.
"Lawmakers have overlooked school buses for decades despite warnings and recommendations that they act immediately." |
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drivin4safety
Advanced Member
United States
259 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2007 : 6:22:40 PM
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Old buses, I've kinda got mixed feelings on them, I drive a 92 blue bird conventional now on my route, I used to drive a 90 thomas conventional on the same route. They have both been really good units to me. Very reliable and solidly built, and maintained. I give as much credit to our staff of mechanics as to the bus builders themselves. However, I agree that a regular replacement cycle needs to be in place to update the fleet over time. It doesn't have to be all at once, though it sounds like they (S.C.) could use a more expedient rate short term. I'm not sure of this, but I think our district and the surrounding districts set their own replacement schedules, as long as they fall within state guidelines. From as much as I've read here on the forums in various threads I really believe myself to be fortunate in what I have in the equipment I drive, the facility I operate out of, and the people (co-workers up through administration) that I work with. Now if I could only find a private sector company to treat me as well as my school district does I'd have it made.
Mike |
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80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2007 : 7:00:07 PM
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Note: This article has been edited - To view the entire article, visit The Post and Courier @ http://www.charleston.net/assets/webPages/departmental/news/Stories.aspx?section=localnews&tableId=134283&pubDate=3/12/2007
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The Post and Courier-Monday, March 12, 2007-By RON MENCHACA AND MINDY B. HAGEN
A mechanic's nightmare
Aging school bus fleet relies on scavenged parts to stay on the road
Glance around the yard behind many of the state's school bus shops and you'll see rows of devoured bus carcasses, their wiring exposed, engines missing and headlights lifted.
As the state's school bus fleet ages, spare parts no longer exist or aren't readily available. Shop supervisors either wait weeks for delivery of a part or cannibalize from bus graveyards.
In South Carolina, these hulks are priceless. Without them, the state can't find enough spare parts to keep its aged fleet carrying children to school.
A mixed fleet with nearly a dozen different models of buses, some as many as 23 years old, is a logistical and
mechanical nightmare. Most bus parts from different makes, models and years are not interchangeable, meaning employees at the 46 school bus shops in the state are faced with the challenge of scouring spare buses or calling junk yards in other states.
Some parts can be found only in Latin American countries that buy old American school buses.
If parts can't be found quickly, a bus that could be transporting students sits idle in the shop.
That can be risky: Bus drivers and mechanics in several counties say that if a bus sits for even a few hours, chances are a mechanic will raid it to get another bus back on the road. Robert Hoffman, who oversees the Beaufort County bus shop, said the shops have to make tough calls like this every day. "It's robbing Peter to pay Paul," he said.
While the size of the state's bus fleet has remained roughly the same for the past decade, the annual cost of major bus components such as engines has skyrocketed during that period, from about $700,000 in 1997 to more than $4 million this budget year. That's enough money to buy about 56 new state-of-the-art school buses.
Old shops, mechanic turnover
Beleaguered mechanics serve as front-line soldiers in the battle to keep these creaky vehicles healthy enough to transport children. Yet they often are forced to do this out of school bus shops that are more than 40 years old and lack modern technology and equipment.
Many of the service vehicles that mechanics rely on to rescue broken-down buses are themselves cobbled together from retired buses. Some bus shops still use service vehicles from the 1970s; they sometimes break down when mechanics take them out on the road to fix buses.
The state recorded nearly 12,000 bus breakdowns in the 2005-06 school year. With nearly three out of four state school buses running at more than 150,000 miles - and more than one in five with more than 250,000 miles - the existing maintenance crisis is likely to mushroom.
New buses, more problems
In recent weeks, brand new school buses purchased in 2006 began arriving at state bus shops.
The new European-style buses are noticeably different from anything else in the fleet. Their shiny paint and plethora of automated driver controls stand in stark contrast to the ratty and worn buses that make up much of the fleet.
Veteran Beaufort County mechanic Rusty Wright, who recently attended maintenance training for the new buses, worries that their computerized diagnostics may be too advanced for mechanics accustomed to fixing old buses. "We are getting buses that are too modern for our employees."
The state bought 630 new buses, which accounts for a little more than 10 percent of the fleet. But even that $37 million purchase is not enough to retire all of the state's buses that are more than 20 years old.
And there's no guarantee the state will buy new buses again soon without a law that mandates a replacement cycle.
Still, Bishop and other mechanics took the purchase as a sign that their plight might finally get some attention.
Bishop worries that problems with the new buses is history repeating itself. "That tells me we are getting a new batch of lemons."
Reach Ron Menchaca at 937-5724 or rmenchaca@postandcourier.com.
Reach Mindy B. Hagen at 937-5433 or mhagen@postandcourier.com.
http://www.charleston.net/assets/webPages/departmental/news/Stories.aspx?section=localnews&tableId=134283&pubDate=3/12/2007
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Edited by - 80-RE4 on 03/12/2007 06:17:28 AM |
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dem84skeeprollinup
Top Member
USA
888 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2007 : 08:27:22 AM
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| I knew South Carolina had some old buses, but I didn't realize it was that bad for them down there. I would say the oldest bus on the road today for a school district should be a 1987, including spares. I'm sure those Senators were nice, but they are still 14 years old. I'm thinking that South Carolina doesn't own one brand new bus. |
Do the world a favor and bring back GMC and Ford conventional chassis......
 
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ICfan
Top Member
USA
1251 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2007 : 09:04:08 AM
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| I knew that, I lived there for 6 months, the only new buses where the ones Greenville County bought. If you visit my website (link in siginature) click on SC Buses to get a view of the Carpenters, Thomas' and Internationals. |
Tyler Roys Weatherman and International Fan,
http://www.freewebs.com/thectschoolbusyard |
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Jake
Top Member
USA
3527 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 02:53:38 AM
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(My opinion is mine. I have the right to MY opinion.)
ICFan - those 80s IHC Blue Birds, from what I can see, appear to be at least 1988, and the Carpenter is 84/85. That isn't that bad. Their are districts in Ohio that still have Loadstars in their fleet (1976? LoadStar Superior) - or atleast until like 2 years ago.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32998163@N00/237183988/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeffq/67157072/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/manpurse/17919938/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jorgeluiscamacho/370252232/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/manpurse/17920693/
Does any of that look that old? That Carpenter on ICfans site appears to be the oldest, but I am sure more districts other than SC have them.
Now to the Senators, those buses are as durable as ever. I felt safe on those than in the IC that replaced them. I have been in a minor bus accident with one. Only one person was hurt, and that was extremely minor. One Senator was totalled before its retirement. As to my understanding, no one was hurt. Yeah, the bus could'nt be driven, I saw the accident in person (well from about 800 or so ft away, it was in the middle of my PM route). If anything, those buses could last at least 4-5 more years. And you can look at some blogging sites about how they purchase used buses. I mean OMG, districts purchase used buses everyday. Ohio, some in Indiana, wooptiedoo!
Anyway, I can understand how some older bsues shouldn't be in service, but you gotta realize, its not that bad of a issue. When I was down their in the 1990s I didnt see any early 1980s or any 1970s buses at all.
Now on saftey features, as a bus fan in a district of over 900 buses, I've personally never seen a issue paper worthy to where Exit Windows or Roof hatches were ever used. The only 2 things that are are the rear and side exit door. Sometimes the front (depending on accident). Roof hatches, some kids don't even know what they are. Everyone refers to them as a roof vent. I've only seen one kid outta 4 years in riding the bus call it a roof hatch. No exageration. And all exit windows are to us is a toy for idiots to use to irritate the bus driver in the middle of a route.
I understand the purpose of the equipment. Its just not implyed. I've seen buses on fires / tip over on the internet, but nothing like this happens on regular basis.
~Jake~ |
Edited by - Jake on 03/13/2007 2:16:09 PM |
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Jake
Top Member
USA
3527 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 03:04:27 AM
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Talk about old, look at what Washigtons now retiring:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bluebird-All-American-1984-Bus-07-0455_W0QQitemZ280092224172QQcategoryZ6728QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bluebird-All-American-1982-Bus-07-0459_W0QQitemZ280092223868QQcategoryZ6728QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bluebird-All-American-1982-Bus-07-0451_W0QQitemZ280092223607QQcategoryZ6728QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
And about durability and all this, look at CA. Many districts got pre 1980s buses / Crowns/ Gilligs/ Everything. Are any of them looking for replacements...?
And on canabalizing buses, whats wrong with getting parts you can use from retired buses? Should they have to go to Myers in Ohio and buy them? No... My district has a junkyard too. Full of about 17 1988 Ford Waynes, 3 1987 IHC Carpenters, 1 Ward Senator (close to being fully cannabalized), 1 1989 Ford BB, 1 1991 IHC BB short bus, 1 1993 Ford Amtran, 1 1980s GMC Truck, That Fire 2000 IHC Amtran, and a 1999 IHC Amtran which had its rear smashed in (fully canabalized - all thats left is a shell). I dont see anything wrong with using older buses for parts. And I mean, in SC their saying they are so old you cant find parts... OMG really? How many S1700 IHC BBs/ Carpenters do u see at Myers and Mike & Bs in Ohio? Goto www.busman49.com and go to a bunch and tell me how many say location as Canfield, Ohio or Newcommerstown, Ohio. Do that for School Bus Central. And tell me how many of those older carpenters say "Retired" and the ones that don't. Does anyone complain over that? No. They can find parts, they just dont look.
~Jake~ |
Edited by - Jake on 03/13/2007 03:08:06 AM |
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Steven A.Rosenow
Top Member
USA
1926 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 04:56:28 AM
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| The oldest school buses in use? I doubt that. Go to California, where you'll still find Gillig and Crown school buses built mid-'70s on upwards still in service (although the numbers of them are dwindling rapidly) |
http://www.gilligcoaches.net |
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Buskid
Top Member
USA
3368 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 05:43:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven A.Rosenow
(although the numbers of them are dwindling rapidly)
They are. It's become a rare sight to see a pre-1977 Crown or Gillig in active service anymore in Southern California. The only recent pre-1977s I've seen still being run lately belong to private contractors, but even a good majority of those buses are being replaced. |
Edited by - Buskid on 03/13/2007 05:43:50 AM |
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dem84skeeprollinup
Top Member
USA
888 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 08:46:53 AM
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| California buses would be in a different catagory altogether than South Carolina. A California bus rarely has rust on it. On the other hand, SC buys buses with rust on them already. |
Do the world a favor and bring back GMC and Ford conventional chassis......
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 1:32:25 PM
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quote:
I don't see any problem with anything they own.
Everyone is just over reacting. That opinion with the oldest and least safe buses is prolly just talking or refering to one area down their.
ICFan - those 80s IHC Blue Birds, from what I can see, appear to be at least 1988, and the Carpenter is 84/85. That isn't that bad. Their are districts in Ohio that still have Loadstars in their fleet (1976? LoadStar Superior) - or atleast until like 2 years ago.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32998163@N00/237183988/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeffq/67157072/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/manpurse/17919938/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jorgeluiscamacho/370252232/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/manpurse/17920693/
Does any of that look that old? That Carpenter on ICfans site appears to be the oldest, but I am sure more districts other than SC have them.
Now to the Senators, those buses are as durable as ever. I felt safe on those than in the IC that replaced them. I have been in a minor bus accident with one. Only one person was hurt, and that was extremely minor. One Senator was totalled before its retirement. As to my understanding, no one was hurt. Yeah, the bus could'nt be driven, I saw the accident in person (well from about 800 or so ft away, it was in the middle of my PM route). If anything, those buses could last at least 4-5 more years. And you can look at some blogging sites about how they purchase used buses. I mean OMG, districts purchase used buses everyday. Ohio, some in Indiana, wooptiedoo!
Anyway, I can understand how some older bsues shouldn't be in service, but you gotta realize, its not that bad of a issue. When I was down their in the 1990s I didnt see any early 1980s or any 1970s buses at all.
Now on saftey features, as a bus fan in a district of over 900 buses, I've personally never seen a issue paper worthy to where Exit Windows or Roof hatches were ever used. The only 2 things that are are the rear and side exit door. Sometimes the front (depending on accident). Roof hatches, some kids don't even know what they are. Everyone refers to them as a roof vent. I've only seen one kid outta 4 years in riding the bus call it a roof hatch. No exageration. And all exit windows are to us is a toy for idiots to use to irritate the bus driver in the middle of a route.
~Jake~
POST TWO:
Talk about old, look at what Washigtons now retiring:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bluebird-All-American-1984-Bus-07-0455_W0QQitemZ280092224172QQcategoryZ6728QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bluebird-All-American-1982-Bus-07-0459_W0QQitemZ280092223868QQcategoryZ6728QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bluebird-All-American-1982-Bus-07-0451_W0QQitemZ280092223607QQcategoryZ6728QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
And about durability and all this, look at CA. Many districts got pre 1980s buses / Crowns/ Gilligs/ Everything. Are any of them looking for replacements...?
And on canabalizing buses, whats wrong with getting parts you can use from retired buses? Should they have to go to Myers in Ohio and buy them? No... My district has a junkyard too. Full of about 17 1988 Ford Waynes, 3 1987 IHC Carpenters, 1 Ward Senator (close to being fully cannabalized), 1 1989 Ford BB, 1 1991 IHC BB short bus, 1 1993 Ford Amtran, 1 1980s GMC Truck, That Fire 2000 IHC Amtran, and a 1999 IHC Amtran which had its rear smashed in (fully canabalized - all thats left is a shell). I dont see anything wrong with using older buses for parts. And I mean, in SC their saying they are so old you cant find parts... OMG really? How many S1700 IHC BBs/ Carpenters do u see at Myers and Mike & Bs in Ohio? Goto www.busman49.com and go to a bunch and tell me how many say location as Canfield, Ohio or Newcommerstown, Ohio. Do that for School Bus Central. And tell me how many of those older carpenters say "Retired" and the ones that don't. Does anyone complain over that? No. They can find parts, they just dont look.
~Jake~
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Edited by - 92WardSenatorFE on 03/13/2007 03:08:06 AM
Jake, since you are an expert on bus fleets, I would like to see you run 1980's buses with 250,000+ miles every day, and not have any major issues. I can't get over some of the stupidty you've posted, the only reason you're defending South Carolina's pathetic operation is because they bought buses from your school district!
What you also fail to realize is that South Carolina has a huge percentage of 1980's vehicles, compared to districts in Ohio, California, and Washington. Over half of South Carolina's fleet is 15+ years old, with the majority of those from the 1980's, and many with parts that are just no longer available.
The other problem I have with your posts is that you are comparing a California bus to a South Carolina bus. Crown Supercoaches and Gillig Coaches are built far superior to Carpenters, Wards, Blue Birds, and other buses that SC runs!
Also, what is your issue with roof hatches and emergency windows? I guess you've never heard of a bus turning over on it's side... heck who needs a roof hatch if a bus is on it's side...
I gotta say, those two posts of yours get an "A+" for stupidity!!!  |
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Edited by - Rich on 03/13/2007 1:34:47 PM |
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Jake
Top Member
USA
3527 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 2:05:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard
Jake, since you are an expert on bus fleets, I would like to see you run 1980's buses with 250,000+ miles every day, and not have any major issues. I can't get over some of the stupidty you've posted, the only reason you're defending South Carolina's pathetic operation is because they bought buses from your school district!
What you also fail to realize is that South Carolina has a huge percentage of 1980's vehicles, compared to districts in Ohio, California, and Washington. Over half of South Carolina's fleet is 15+ years old, with the majority of those from the 1980's, and many with parts that are just no longer available.
The other problem I have with your posts is that you are comparing a California bus to a South Carolina bus. Crown Supercoaches and Gillig Coaches are built far superior to Carpenters, Wards, Blue Birds, and other buses that SC runs!
Also, what is your issue with roof hatches and emergency windows? I guess you've never heard of a bus turning over on it's side... heck who needs a roof hatch if a bus is on it's side...
I gotta say, those two posts of yours get an "A+" for stupidity!!!
Saving for Admin. What you have done is outrageous. #1 I know what I am saying. I clearly said in the past 3-4 years I've never seen a bus accident that the roof or side windows were needed.
#2) Our fleet ran 1988 Ford Waynes, and 1989 Ford BBs in 2000-2005. No issues. Very few were in the garage. We had more ICs in the garage in 2005 than Any pre 1993 bus in the fleet. Fact. Look I may have exagerated a tad, but if half of SCs fleet is in the 80s, howcome Flickr/ yahoo/ any pictures reflect it? I went to SC in the 1990s, and i didnt see hardly any old crap. I've talked to several sbf members who go to SC annually (Wont mention your name ;) You know who I am talking about... ) And he says you all are making a big deal over it and he rarely sees any older stuff down their.
#3) I am not protecting them because of my Senators. Oh hecky no. I could care less if they were in use in Mexico as chicken buses, Its not like i'd protect their buses. I am upset how everyone thinks older buses are unsafe. They arn't. It all depends on how the contractor or SD maintains them. Some districts retire buses in 10 year cycles. Thats way uncessary. I ride a 1995 IHC Carpenter daily. I feel as safe in it as I do any other bus. I felt safe in our 88/89 buses as I do in other buses.
#4) I never said roof hatches/ windows are stupid. I am just implying I've never seen them used around here.
#5) I've never been on a Crown Coach, or a Gillig, so that is just my opinion. I have the right to my opinion in Admemndment 1 of the Constitustion.
#6) Waynes and Carpenters and Wards, etc from what I've seen are still being used in CA from the 70s/ 80s.
#7) I only mentioned CA once, I mainly refered to Ohio***
Look. I see issues from both sides, but I don't believe half of their buses are from the 80s. I am smarter than that. Unless you go down their and prove it to me, I will leave it as a exageration.
I will also protect any states buses. Washington to KY to VA to SC to FL to TX to NY to IL.
I can understand using 80s buses as a problem, and I have reread the article, and I can see where I can call my self stupid in some ways (I glanced earlier) But I am going to imply, I am saying an Older bus is SAFE as long as the SD or Contractor PROPERLY maintains the BUS to where it has FEW issues and not a piece of CRAP going down the road.
~Jake~
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Edited by - Jake on 03/13/2007 2:14:16 PM |
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thomas86_a
Top Member
USA
4413 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 2:07:44 PM
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Thank you Richard! Those Senators might have been in decent shape for their age and might still have some life left in them but it's pretty clear that a state is in sorry shape when it buys buses that old to replace their old buses! If they were so damn good why did Kentucky get rid of them? It's called having an efficient/dependable fleet to safely transport students to and from school. As for roof/window exits, they aren't intended to be used on a regular basis and the majority of buses don't see them used however occasionally buses do tip over and if it's in water or the bus is on fire you certainly want as many exits as possible. I saw a video clip of a bus that ended up in a river of some sort, they evacuated the students by air lift out of the roof exit. It would have been a heck of a lot harder to evacuate those passengers without that exit.
I love history and I love some of the old buses that I drove but you can't put your personal feelings for a vehicle before the safety of any passenger, especially school children. |
If you have an International, you NEED customer service. |
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Jake
Top Member
USA
3527 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 2:13:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by thomas86_a
Thank you Richard! Those Senators might have been in decent shape for their age and might still have some life left in them but it's pretty clear that a state is in sorry shape when it buys buses that old to replace their old buses! If they were so damn good why did Kentucky get rid of them? It's called having an efficient/dependable fleet to safely transport students to and from school. As for roof/window exits, they aren't intended to be used on a regular basis and the majority of buses don't see them used however occasionally buses do tip over and if it's in water or the bus is on fire you certainly want as many exits as possible. I saw a video clip of a bus that ended up in a river of some sort, they evacuated the students by air lift out of the roof exit. It would have been a heck of a lot harder to evacuate those passengers without that exit.
I love history and I love some of the old buses that I drove but you can't put your personal feelings for a vehicle before the safety of any passenger, especially school children.
According to everyone I've talked to from the district, they were retired for 2 reasons:
#1) Age (as a small issue, we still have 1990 buses)
#2) They were the only type D buses we have in the fleet. Many other districts below us run these everyday along with some 1988 Ford Waynes, etc. With no issues. These buses had 2 Roof Hatches, 4 Windows, side door, etc. No safety issues.
I am all for safety. I feel granted to be able to ride on buses with all this stuff. Roof hatches, side doors, yadda yadda. KY is one of the few states that require side doors, 4 windows, and 2 roof hatches. I feel glad for that. Up north of me, all their buses are 1 roof hatch 2 windows.
I understand the purpose of exit windows, doors and hatches. I see all the time videos on the internet where they were used elsewhere. I'm just saying I've never seen them used in this area. And its not implyed here (Not SBF, where I am) what their significance is either.
~Jake~ |
Edited by - Jake on 03/13/2007 2:56:53 PM |
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ICfan
Top Member
USA
1251 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 2:57:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by 92WardSenatorFE
quote:
Originally posted by Richard
Jake, since you are an expert on bus fleets, I would like to see you run 1980's buses with 250,000+ miles every day, and not have any major issues. I can't get over some of the stupidty you've posted, the only reason you're defending South Carolina's pathetic operation is because they bought buses from your school district!
What you also fail to realize is that South Carolina has a huge percentage of 1980's vehicles, compared to districts in Ohio, California, and Washington. Over half of South Carolina's fleet is 15+ years old, with the majority of those from the 1980's, and many with parts that are just no longer available.
The other problem I have with your posts is that you are comparing a California bus to a South Carolina bus. Crown Supercoaches and Gillig Coaches are built far superior to Carpenters, Wards, Blue Birds, and other buses that SC runs!
Also, what is your issue with roof hatches and emergency windows? I guess you've never heard of a bus turning over on it's side... heck who needs a roof hatch if a bus is on it's side...
I gotta say, those two posts of yours get an "A+" for stupidity!!!
Saving for Admin. What you have done is outrageous. #1 I know what I am saying. I clearly said in the past 3-4 years I've never seen a bus accident that the roof or side windows were needed.
#2) Our fleet ran 1988 Ford Waynes, and 1989 Ford BBs in 2000-2005. No issues. Very few were in the garage. We had more ICs in the garage in 2005 than Any pre 1993 bus in the fleet. Fact. Look I may have exagerated a tad, but if half of SCs fleet is in the 80s, howcome Flickr/ yahoo/ any pictures reflect it? I went to SC in the 1990s, and i didnt see hardly any old crap. I've talked to several sbf members who go to SC annually (Wont mention your name ;) You know who I am talking about... ) And he says you all are making a big deal over it and he rarely sees any older stuff down their.
#3) I am not protecting them because of my Senators. Oh hecky no. I could care less if they were in use in Mexico as chicken buses, Its not like i'd protect their buses. I am upset how everyone thinks older buses are unsafe. They arn't. It all depends on how the contractor or SD maintains them. Some districts retire buses in 10 year cycles. Thats way uncessary. I ride a 1995 IHC Carpenter daily. I feel as safe in it as I do any other bus. I felt safe in our 88/89 buses as I do in other buses.
#4) I never said roof hatches/ windows are stupid. I am just implying I've never seen them used around here.
#5) I've never been on a Crown Coach, or a Gillig, so that is just my opinion. I have the right to my opinion in Admemndment 1 of the Constitustion.
#6) Waynes and Carpenters and Wards, etc from what I've seen are still being used in CA from the 70s/ 80s.
#7) I only mentioned CA once, I mainly refered to Ohio***
Look. I see issues from both sides, but I don't believe half of their buses are from the 80s. I am smarter than that. Unless you go down their and prove it to me, I will leave it as a exageration.
I will also protect any states buses. Washington to KY to VA to SC to FL to TX to NY to IL.
I can understand using 80s buses as a problem, and I have reread the article, and I can see where I can call my self stupid in some ways (I glanced earlier) But I am going to imply, I am saying an Older bus is SAFE as long as the SD or Contractor PROPERLY maintains the BUS to where it has FEW issues and not a piece of CRAP going down the road.
~Jake~
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I have to disagree with your # 2. Have your friends been to Greenville County? They are crawling with Carpenters! When SC bought those KY buses, it was a big thing on the news! SC is in need of help of turning their fleet around, and this pass year they did that with 300+ buses from Thomas. The only new buses you see are from the districts themselves. Greenville has been talking about either taking over their district transportation and buying/operating their own bus fleet for the schools or getting the county contracted.
Who ever is your spy has not been to Greenville! I have for 6 months! |
Tyler Roys Weatherman and International Fan,
http://www.freewebs.com/thectschoolbusyard |
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Jake
Top Member
USA
3527 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 3:03:42 PM
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Like I said, I havent been their in a LONG TIME, so I have no idea what it looks like today, and I am not planning on going down their either. And for the spy, he isnt a spy. Hes a regular member at SBF who wishes to stay Jon Doe.
And what is wrong with Carpenters? I ride a Carpenter, and I think it is a very decent bus. Just because some had roof weld issues doesn't mean they are bad buses. I love Carps. As long as they are maintained and dont have the issue, they are virtually fine (and as long as they have proper safety equipment)
~Jake~ |
Edited by - Jake on 03/13/2007 3:08:05 PM |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 3:38:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by 92WardSenatorFE
quote:
Originally posted by thomas86_a
Thank you Richard! Those Senators might have been in decent shape for their age and might still have some life left in them but it's pretty clear that a state is in sorry shape when it buys buses that old to replace their old buses! If they were so damn good why did Kentucky get rid of them? It's called having an efficient/dependable fleet to safely transport students to and from school. As for roof/window exits, they aren't intended to be used on a regular basis and the majority of buses don't see them used however occasionally buses do tip over and if it's in water or the bus is on fire you certainly want as many exits as possible. I saw a video clip of a bus that ended up in a river of some sort, they evacuated the students by air lift out of the roof exit. It would have been a heck of a lot harder to evacuate those passengers without that exit.
I love history and I love some of the old buses that I drove but you can't put your personal feelings for a vehicle before the safety of any passenger, especially school children.
I understand the purpose of exit windows, doors and hatches. I see all the time videos on the internet where they were used elsewhere. I'm just saying I've never seen them used in this area. And its not implyed here (Not SBF, where I am) what their significance is either.
~Jake~
So let me get this straight.
Since you, one person, has never seen a roof hatch, or side emergency window in use, you find them to be pointless? I honestly just cannot get your point on this, the more emergency escape routes the better!
New York was one of the first, if not THE first state, to require side emergency windows (1960s), and roof hatches (1970s), not to mention the side emergency doors which have been around since the 1940s.
Your ENTIRE argument on old buses is completely false. The buses that South Carolina is running from the 1980's with 250,000+ miles, some with over 400,000 miles will CERTAINLY cost MUCH more to run on a per mile basis versus a brand new bus. Not only is it much more expensive to run an older bus per mile, but it truly IS unsafe. Metal structures become less secure over time, resulting in less strength in a bus. It's no wonder that a bus develops significant rattling over its lifetime...
Jake, you simply have no good argument for South Carolina's fleet. The fleet is a travesty! |
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Jake
Top Member
USA
3527 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 4:15:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard
quote:
Originally posted by 92WardSenatorFE
quote:
Originally posted by thomas86_a
Thank you Richard! Those Senators might have been in decent shape for their age and might still have some life left in them but it's pretty clear that a state is in sorry shape when it buys buses that old to replace their old buses! If they were so damn good why did Kentucky get rid of them? It's called having an efficient/dependable fleet to safely transport students to and from school. As for roof/window exits, they aren't intended to be used on a regular basis and the majority of buses don't see them used however occasionally buses do tip over and if it's in water or the bus is on fire you certainly want as many exits as possible. I saw a video clip of a bus that ended up in a river of some sort, they evacuated the students by air lift out of the roof exit. It would have been a heck of a lot harder to evacuate those passengers without that exit.
I love history and I love some of the old buses that I drove but you can't put your personal feelings for a vehicle before the safety of any passenger, especially school children.
I understand the purpose of exit windows, doors and hatches. I see all the time videos on the internet where they were used elsewhere. I'm just saying I've never seen them used in this area. And its not implyed here (Not SBF, where I am) what their significance is either.
~Jake~
So let me get this straight.
Since you, one person, has never seen a roof hatch, or side emergency window in use, you find them to be pointless? I honestly just cannot get your point on this, the more emergency escape routes the better!
New York was one of the first, if not THE first state, to require side emergency windows (1960s), and roof hatches (1970s), not to mention the side emergency doors which have been around since the 1940s.
Your ENTIRE argument on old buses is completely false. The buses that South Carolina is running from the 1980's with 250,000+ miles, some with over 400,000 miles will CERTAINLY cost MUCH more to run on a per mile basis versus a brand new bus. Not only is it much more expensive to run an older bus per mile, but it truly IS unsafe. Metal structures become less secure over time, resulting in less strength in a bus. It's no wonder that a bus develops significant rattling over its lifetime...
Jake, you simply have no good argument for South Carolina's fleet. The fleet is a travesty!
My arguement is over Older buses of which are mantained regulary, and the owner of them keeps them "up to date". Which includes letting them fall into dispear, or letting buses that break down everyday still run.
I scanned this topic at first, and I will admit, I make no sense at first, but I am arguing that Some older buses are still safe. Look at Double A, they restore buses (or used to anyway). Yeah, now buses with 400,000 miles shouldnt be ran, or troublesome buses. I did not read the topic throughly as mentioned. But I am still entitled to my own opinion.
I also have nothing against roof hatches or exit windows. The more exits, the better, yeah. I'd hate to be stuck on a Indiana bus with 2 exit windows, and a roof hatch, or none at all. I feel great I live in a area that requires them, fyi. I never stated they were bad at all, I am stating I do NOT see them used regularly. I am also stating that they are misunderstood in my area. No kid has an idea what to do if a bus flipped. Everyone except for me would die. Everyone would panic and try to go out the rear door, or something stupid, or just sit and go "Oh I'll wait till the police come to save us". Our district DOES NOT tell anyone any evacuation plans EXCEPT FOR the side door/ rear. Even tho they say "EMERGENCY EXIT" the kids dont care. We have kids that dont realize we're in a different bus from a 2006 IC CE to a 1990 IHC Wayne till 4 days after we get our bus back. Kids do NOT pay attention. Emergency procedures are NOT praticed in my area, and Roof Hatches/ Windows are quite pointless if you DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE FOR/ HOW TO USE THEM/ WHAT TO DO IF A BUS DID TUMP OVER. Kids are going for the Doors. I asked a friend over AIM just right now if their bus would tump over and they go "Oh I sit in the back, i'd just go through the rear door". I asked about roof hatches. "Oh those things, they are unsafe. I'd never go out one. Talk about their size, most kids would get stuck in them. Even if the bus was underwater, on fire, and tumped over, I'd go out the rear door - End of discussion." It is quite sad how some think of the more exits as pointless, but if we were in a wreck today and the bus needed to be evacuated in one minute, few would live. I'd go out a window, while others would scramble for the rear exit door (This is if the bus tumped to its side). Its crazy how we dont enforce safety.
~Jake~
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Yellow & Black
A new forum community dedicated to school bus driving, operations, maintenance and enthusiasts!
Come join the discussion! |
Edited by - Jake on 03/13/2007 4:18:33 PM |
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80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 4:17:23 PM
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Tue, Mar. 13, 2007-
full story @ http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/16891306.htm
Bill would mandate 400 new school buses yearly- From Staff Reports
This week members of the House of Representatives will sketch out their budget and will signal whether the General Assembly is ready to make another major school bus purchase.
Rep. Bob Walker, R-Spartanburg, has introduced legislation that would require the Department of Education to replace one-twelfth of the 5,000-bus fleet each year, yielding a completely replaced fleet every 12 years.
Here are three things to know about the state’s school bus fleet:
Oldest and least safe in nation
The buses that transport the state’s public school children have been known to be among the oldest — and least safe — in the country. A report in The (Charleston) Post and Courier that ran in its Sunday editions said most of the buses lack safety features like anti-lock brakes and alarms that signal when the bus backs up. More than 2,000 buses also were without roof and window exits.
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Edited by - 80-RE4 on 03/13/2007 4:24:02 PM |
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93CarpFord#11
Top Member
USA
1382 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 4:53:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard
I gotta say, those two posts of yours get an "A+" for stupidity!!!
There was no reason for you to say this. You should keep your comments to yourself, but wait I forgot, you're the SBF Forum Police. |
Johnny
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03CV200
Top Member
United States
740 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 5:34:38 PM
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Look, EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinion. You all have your good points. If someone is incorrect and you find it ABSOLUTLEY necessary to correct them, do it in a polite way. There is no reason to make them feel like an idiot or insult them. Some of you may forget, that there are several of us on this forum who are new to bus industry and are bound to get things wrong, but theres no reason to insult them for that, we are trying to LEARN.
As far as old buses go, in the end, the disrict/state has the final say in whats acceptable or not, thats the bottom line, regardless of what you feel personally. And if you feel the state/district is wrong, go to a school board meeting and voice your opinion.
I'm sorry, but I don't think this forum is a place to argue and insult people. Jake, I'm sorry you fell victim to all of this nonsense. |
-Dave |
Edited by - 03CV200 on 03/13/2007 6:37:36 PM |
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CPCSC_TD
Top Member
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 6:04:36 PM
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I take offense to the Indiana comment- my busses are spec'd with three roof hatches, and six exit windows. We conduct evacuation drills EVERY month at every building with school staff. Do you still fear being on one of those Indiana buses? I hate to think what my neighboring districts who have been ordering 2 hatches and a minimum of 4 exit windows would think to your comment.
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Jake
Top Member
USA
3527 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 6:18:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CPCSC_TD
I take offense to the Indiana comment- my busses are spec'd with three roof hatches, and six exit windows. We conduct evacuation drills EVERY month at every building with school staff. Do you still fear being on one of those Indiana buses? I hate to think what my neighboring districts who have been ordering 2 hatches and a minimum of 4 exit windows would think to your comment.
I have not seen any newer Indiana buses. I am going off what I have seen purchased in the 1990s. I dont want to offend anyone, I love Indiana buses. Don't get me wrong, I am just implying through the 90s thats all i've seen on their IHC BBs while every bus in my district has everything.
~Jake~ |
Edited by - Jake on 03/13/2007 6:18:38 PM |
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LBDboater
Advanced Member
USA
279 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 6:28:12 PM
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| Our buses only spec 2 roof hatches and 2 emergency windows (one on each side of the bus) plus the emergency exit door on the rear of the bus. In our whole county, we have 2-3 buses with the emergency side doors also. Not that I'm taking the "couldn't happen to me" stance, but accidents are extremely rare. Maybe 2-3 a year, with an average of less than one injury a year! It would be a waste of tax money unless we have a sharp increase in accidents and/or injuries. |
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CPCSC_TD
Top Member
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 7:12:48 PM
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Waste of taxpayer money?
Roof hatch= $250 avergae life span of a transit bus is 12 years.
12 years *365days a year= 4380 days $250/250= $.057 per hatch per child. Is an extra hatch that much to the taxpayer- expecially when you consider it can happen and has happened. Any risk management director will include this in their specs' always.
It would be a waist unless we have an increase in accidents- how American- let's not be proactive, just reactive. Amazes me- let's just let someone die before we make advances or utilize the education and equipment available.
If you are willing to make that phone call to the parent that their child couldn't get out in time and burned- then continue dusting off your spec's and reorder the same buses with older technology.
I will continue to look at accident investigation reports to learn what could have been done and make sure our bus spec's reflect those necessary changes. |
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LBDboater
Advanced Member
USA
279 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 7:25:58 PM
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| Who's to say that that extra hatch or window will make the accident any less fatal? We had a risk management team in the last time we discussed major changes to our specs. Of all our stats... none of them would've benefited from the extra roof hatch or emergency exit. I said that we don't act like it can't happen to us, but our experience with the roof hatches is that they leak horribly. We figured two hatches was sufficient, and that two emergency exit windows were more than sufficient. I wish that the general public understood that amazing budget break down right there. But, they always have some better idea for that money, some new technology, new books, renovate or build a school, etc. I'm not claiming that districts that spec buses better than us are wasting money, I'm merely saying that they have or feel more of a need for the extra hatches and windows. I have my dream bus picked out, believe me, it includes more than two emergency windows. We only have conventional buses here, and in my opinion (please don't attack me, it's an opinion) don't look as good with side emergency exit doors. I'm pretty happy that we don't spec them on the aesthetic goal! |
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Kodie
Top Member
United States
2028 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 7:42:54 PM
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| We have 70 buses all with 4 emergency windows and 2 side e-doors. I agree with you LBDboater. Come guys on get over it if you don't like a states buses go critisize the TD, offline somewhere. Our Transportation department has been running since 1940 and the most serious accident they had was last year when a bus took off on it's own and hit a concrete light pole, they didn't need the emergency doors, or windows. Most accidents are usually minor, how often do your school buses flip over. If you really fear that the buses are going to roll over crash and burn then maybe you should consider hiring new employees, they must be bad drivers if you think that this will happen. It ***** being attacked like this Jake doesn't it, people need to grow up. |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2007 : 02:46:42 AM
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I cannot get over the complete ignorance in this topic when it comes to the spec'ing of emergency exits!
There have been hundreds of documented bus accidents where the roof hatches, side emergency windows, and side emergency doors have been used, but since a few people from one location haven't seen them used they are deemed unneccessary.
That's like saying that air bags in a car are a waste since you've never been in or seen a crash.
There is not a single good reason that I have seen to not support getting roof hatches, side emergency windows, or emergency doors. |
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CPCSC_TD
Top Member
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2007 : 04:07:43 AM
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I have to agree with Richard. If your risk management department has experience in school transportation, accident analysis, vehicle manufacturing, legal background and background in law enforcement then they would prmote additional safety features.
I would curious to see their report and findings.
We all assume something will never happen to us. Prior to coming on board, our district thought nothign would ever happen. After educaiton and such, we began instituting mandatory monthly evacuations and evacuation plans before a bus leaves for a trip.
What happened- we had a serious accident this year. Quote" We knew what to do and how to work the exits because of the videos and practice on the bus." Makes me wonder why one of our students would say that. Seems ironic a child would know this considering there was once a time they did no evacuation drills. What's worse is considering this district once took the attitude-" We don't have serious accidents here."
It's that attitude that will get you shot down ina court of law when questioned by experts. Your risk management department will have a field day trying to keep their rear ends clean when quesitoned by experts. Good luck. |
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BusFreak
Top Member
USA
798 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2007 : 06:49:51 AM
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I would hardly consider anything said in this topic ignorant, but rather different viewpoints from different people. Here's my two cents...Federal standards actually require cars to have airbags, however they do not require school buses to have but a certain number of exits. I'm not saying that having more exits doesn't make the bus safer, however when it comes to the bottom dollar, South Carolina needs to get what they can get, and if that's ordering the bare minimum on their buses, then let it be.
I must say, for the record, it is in noone's place on this forum to belittle any members, regardless of what has been said. This forum is to discuss school buses, not who's smarter or dumber. We should leave all of that to instant messenger or other means of communication. |
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80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2007 : 06:52:57 AM
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(I think that it's important to have adequate emergency exits and roof hatches on school buses in case the bus needs to be evacuated for any reason if the service door or back / side doors are not available) (Amtran80)
As published in the Federal Register, December 13, 1994
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
Federal Highway Administration
NHTSA and FHWA explained in the NPRM that, although statistics
demonstrate that school buses already provide a remarkably safe form of
transportation, steps have been taken to further improve School Bus
Safety. These steps included providing set-aside funds in 1990 and 1991
to assist States in implementing ``effective'' and ``most effective''
school bus safety measures and publishing a number of rulemaking
actions, such as a final rule requiring new school buses to be equipped
with a stop signal arm, a final rule revising the minimum requirements
for school bus emergency exits and improving access to school bus
emergency doors and a final rule requiring that school buses enable
drivers to see either directly or through mirrors certain specified
areas in front of and along both sides of the vehicle. For a full
discussion of these and other actions, interested individuals are
encouraged to read the NPRM (59 FR 2341-42).
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Edited by - 80-RE4 on 03/14/2007 06:55:10 AM |
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<TOPIC> SCarolina SBuses
