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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2007 : 6:55:52 PM
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We have a 99 model bucket truck with this engine and it worked fine all day. Then when we attempted to start it, the engine would turn over but not fire. I looked through a few previous posts to get an idea of what to check for. Does anybody have any further suggestions? The computer shows no codes. This would be the *Ford* version of the 444 by the way...
1) CMP (cam position sensor?) The snap-on computer we had was giving an rpm reading when cranking so not sure if this would be it.
2) IDM relay (what is this by the way?)
3) High pressure oil pump and the associated control valve
4) Bad ECM, although we were able to get readings through snap-on so I don't suspect this
What other sensors or glitches does anybody find common on these engines that I dont know about? |
Edited by - International-9.0 on 03/05/2007 8:38:49 PM
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magstan2
Active Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 7:16:56 PM
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| I believe the IDM is the injector drive module and I have had to replace a couple on DT466's. I had the same problem-no "fire", and no codes. I reckon if I were in your shoes I would check the basics first. FUEL especially. (maybe lost prime) I am not familiar with the 444 though. Good luck. Mike |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 7:35:54 PM
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| The suddeness of this problem (and the perfectly smooth running beforehand) leads me to believe it is not a mechanical or fuel problem that is preventing the engine from firing. You never know of course, but I would suspect a sensor/engine computer/broken wire-bad connection before anything mechanical or fuel related. Thanks for the input magstan2. |
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quizguy
New Member
Canada
8 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 9:27:12 PM
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| Do the easy checks first.Is there fuel at the line connection going into the cyl head.If not ,work back from there and find out why.Check the oil level in the crankcase and especially in the top reservoir for the high pressure oil pump.They had a problem of draining down and wouldn't have enough to operate the injectors for starting.Add some oil to this top reservoir if you have to.Check the sensor connections one by one by unplugging it from the sensor & looking for dirt,corrosion,bent or loose pins.Plug back in and try starting.Do this one at a time and you might have success.I wouldn't start changing expensive sensors until you can get a dealer or someone with the proper computer program to read various parameters vital to making it run. |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 10:52:20 AM
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| We replaced the cam position sensor just to try it as well as checking the HEUI pressure. It was getting well above 500 psi so we can eliminate the Heui system for the most part at this point. Any other suggestions? Where would the IDM be located at? |
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bbird66
Top Member
USA
881 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 12:00:05 PM
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| I believe engine cowl/fire wall top middle..IF I remember right. |
Were gonna miss you "Brent"..Good luck in "Heidi land"
"I know you miss the Wainwrights Bobby, but they were weak and stupid people...and that's why we have wolves and other large predators" .. The Far Side
"On a two hour delay when will my child be picked up??"
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Edited by - bbird66 on 03/07/2007 12:01:23 PM |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2007 : 1:35:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by International-9.0
We replaced the cam position sensor just to try it as well as checking the HEUI pressure. It was getting well above 500 psi so we can eliminate the Heui system for the most part at this point. Any other suggestions? Where would the IDM be located at?
If you get an RPM reading, the CPS (Can Position Sensor) - more correctly the CMP sensor, CANNOT be the cause.
You have done well GrassHopper! With ICP of 500 PSI during cranking, the HPOP and IPR valve also cannot be the cause. But, 500 PSI is NOT enough pressure to cause fuel injection, you need around 650 PSI for that.
You have a WIRING problem, most likely on the power side, to the IPR valve. It MUST have battery voltage to it with the key "On" and the connector plugged in, if not repair/replace the wiring, fuse, etc until you do.
Good job. LOTS of people simply R&R the HPOP and spend thousands of dollars before they even ask for help. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2007 : 6:04:27 PM
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Thanks John. I appreciate your input as you know International engines very well. I will say I'm not a mechanic nor have I helped work on it. The head mechanic knows little about diesels and nothing about electronic ones so he's just trying to troubleshoot randomly. He insisted on changing the CMP even though I told him it wasn't necessary.
I couldn't remember what the HEUI spec was, but I knew it wasn't too far off from 500. They told me it was reading pretty high, and way above 500 so I assume we have passed 650. The computer also never logged any trouble codes despite all the time we have cranked it. They also tested fuel pressure and it was well above 35 psi (we had some printout that was hard to read but the spec looked like 35, although it may not have been exactly that). I think it was somewhere around 60 but I can't remember what they told me. We are relatively sure that the reason the engine is not firing is that the injector solenoids aren't receiving the pulses from the ECM. They don't work on it consistently, plus I am not there to see what is going on. I just speak with them once or twice a day. They are not set up like a truck shop to work on these kinds of things so that makes troubleshooting much more difficult.
I still haven't found the IDM nor do I really know what it's function is. If you can give me an idea, that would be great. I really think it would be fun to take a class on the T444E or another Internation engine of some sort. Working on engines regularly can be a grueling task, but I'd love to do it some in my spare time. I find how they work so interesting. Thanks again for the help.
Jonathan |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2007 : 10:42:50 AM
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In '99 the IDM is integrated into the ECM, so there is no seperate part.
The ECMs are VERY good. In fact, unless the terminals are damaged where the harness plugs into the ECM or the ECM has been fried (murdered) by excessive system voltage (15.5V or greater) the ECMs are nearly 100% reliable.
What you need to do is determine if the injectors CAN fire. To do this you need to run the "Buzz Test", this requires software (ProLink, etc). If the buzz test works, it's NOT the injectors or ECM.
At this time, I suspect a fuel problem. Check the fuel strainer on the BACK of the filter header. These often pulg preventing the transfer pump from supplying fuel to the injectors, and it's sooper easy to do.
Fuel pressure should be higher than 35 psi as I recall, but I don't have the specs here infornt of me either. Oh wait, maybe I do.....
Yes, min fuel pressure is 45 psi. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
Edited by - ModMech on 03/10/2007 11:01:44 AM |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2007 : 12:17:11 PM
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| Ok, we used the snap-on computer to do a "buzz test." The buzz test failed. After the buzz test failed, the snap-on told us that the IDM was at fault. We found out that this truck has a separate IDM from the engine computer down inside the driver-side wheel well. We do not have the equipment/tools/software to do a complete IDM test so they guessed and ordered a new ($700) IDM to try out. They did confirm we had 60 psi of fuel pressure. So we will see what happens when the new IDM arrives. Unfortunately we have to turn in the old IDM for a core exchange. |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2007 : 6:18:35 PM
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The IDM arrived today and that worked! I wonder what causes those IDMs to go bad. At the time the engine stopped working, they were testing the bucket system in the back and getting ready to do a di-electric test to check for grounds. Maybe what they were doing had something to do with it or it was a random failure, but thanks for all the help everybody.  |
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magstan2
Active Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2007 : 5:10:09 PM
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| Just curious. Was anyone welding on your vehicle around that time? Mike |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2007 : 5:39:23 PM
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| Not that I know of, but they were testing and inspecting the bucket lift on the truck. Perhaps that had something to do with it. |
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flyboy
Senior Member
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2007 : 09:20:07 AM
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We have 40 plus T444E engines and several Ford Powerstrokes which are the same. When we experienced a no start we replace the cam sensor. If the engine cranks over rapidly but no start try the Injection Pressure regulator. These are prone to failure and neither the cam sensor nor the IPR will set a code which can help narrow the diagnosis
We have had only one IDM fail and it was a part of the ECM so we had to replace everything just as you did.Your local International dealer can be very helpful with fixing these engines. |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2007 : 5:22:39 PM
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| Cam sensors have been the most common problem with our DT466s too. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2007 : 7:12:39 PM
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| Flyboy, our IDM was separate from the ECM. They were in the same general location, but the IDM was up inside the driver side wheel well and plugged in through the firewall I think. It was an F-550 if that is any help. |
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T444E Not Starting
