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news
Top Member
Canada
2951 Posts |
 Posted - 09/10/2006 : 3:57:40 PM
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September 8, 2006 - Newsday, NY - Medford -- A kindergartner bound for his second day of classes at Eagle Elementary School in Medford on Friday morning fell asleep aboard a minibus and was left for several hours inside the vehicle while it was parked at the driver's home, district officials reported.
The driver was fired by the end of the day, a district spokesman said.
The boy, 5, who was not identified, was eventually found playing inside the minibus when the driver returned to the vehicle for an afternoon run, said Michael Conte, a spokesman for the Patchogue-Medford district.
Conte said the district was also checking with Neil Katz, the principal of Eagle Elementary, to find out if his school had notified the kindergartner's family that the boy had not shown up for class. Conte said it's standard procedure for schools to contact an absent student's parents.
Michel Mostow, the district superintendent, said in a prepared statement that the district would check with United Bus on its procedures and would obtain transportation from another company if United failed to guarantee that such an incident would never happen again.
full story |
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william
Top Member
USA
1912 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2006 : 5:15:11 PM
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| Well that's one less bozo to contend with. Bravo for the United Bus Company. |
William |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2006 : 6:22:28 PM
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Several hours? What's with the "Bozo" manager still employed?
Firing the bus driver accomplished nothing, least not unless also kicking that "Bozo" manager out the door as well. Terminate that worthless carcass of a manager as well and get a manager that knows how to insure no child is left behind on the buses more than a few minutes.  (jk)
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There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 09/10/2006 6:23:52 PM |
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DanLJ
Advanced Member
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 03:27:08 AM
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Again we see a basic failure of responsibility and dereliction of duty on the part of a driver and, predictably, we again see an attempt to transfer that responsibility to somebody other than the person who did not do their job.
Not surprising we see management being accused of being "worthless" - even as the advocate implies that it is ok to leave children on the bus for a "few minutes".
Captain of the bus? Along with being Captain comes responsibility . . . |
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Old Dog
Active Member
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 07:25:29 AM
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| I USED to agree, anyone who left a child on a bus should be fired;until a fellow driver did his walk through,and just by luck,saw a little sliver of a sneaker under a seat.Child had fallen asleep,slid under the seat,if not for luck,he may have been left.I semi-agree with JK,there should be a system at school and in transportation to quickly find out why a child is not at school! |
Wild Willy |
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80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 09:47:36 AM
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While I remain SOMEWHAT spilt on the "consequences" of this position, I would rather not see school bus drivers referred to in forms of derogatory remarks.
If it were to happen to any of us on this forum, I would hope that such names would never be used towards that school bus driver (person, friend, relative, neighbor, co-worker, etc).
I find it hard to believe that any school bus driver that accidentally leaves a child on board an empty school bus be labeled a stupid incompetent fool- but rather a person who made an error. |
Edited by - 80-RE4 on 09/11/2006 09:52:19 AM |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 6:58:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by DanLJ
... Not surprising we see management being accused of being "worthless" - even as the advocate implies that it is ok to leave children on the bus for a "few minutes".
Captain of the bus? Along with being Captain comes responsibility . . .
No need for invention. And to attempt to use my words against me needs some practice. You missed a step. (jk)
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There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 7:24:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by 80AmtranRE4
While I remain SOMEWHAT spilt on the "consequences" of this position, I would rather not see school bus drivers referred to in forms of derogatory remarks. ...
I agree and would add limiting derogatory remarks toward the hard-working managers, school staff and great parents out there as well. But because it goes on, even from management who does the hiring and set up dysfunctional systems, as well as from some fellow bus drivers toward each other - both flawed with over confidence - in the end some derogatory remarks provides the juice for a good debate. Would suppose most of us appreciate honesty more than the disingenuous. (jk)
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There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 09/11/2006 7:26:22 PM |
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william
Top Member
USA
1912 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 10:25:58 PM
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Perhaps we should call those too lazy, dishonest and negligent to check their buses for sleepers sterling citizens. Taking Old Dog's thread, just think what the outcome would have been if that driver had not checked his bus. But he did, and therein lies the difference between drivers who do their jobs and the bozos. Amtran, you can call these prime examples of unconcerned citizens whatever you wish, but to me they will continue to be bozos. If a robber sticks a gun in your face and takes your money but says thank you, is he still not a robber?
I don't recall ever calling a school bus driver a stupid incompetent fool, but I don't like the negative impact these people bring to our profession. If you don't have enough pride to do the job your company, the state, and the parents of your city has entrusted to you and you don't want to abide by prevailing laws, rules and regulations, have no sense of honesty and integrity, are lazy and uncaring and disdainful of your clientele, get into a profession more suited towards your character. |
William |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 09:39:55 AM
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I can agree with ”therein lies the difference between drivers who do their jobs and the bozos,” but only when including the manager that did not establish a redundant system that works.
Although rather wordy (like that because you helped write my response) both should then have enough pride to do the job expected from their employer, the state, and the parents of their city has entrusted them to do. And if both the driver and manager do not want to abide by prevailing laws, rules and regulations, or have no sense of honesty and integrity, are lazy and uncaring and disdainful of their clientele, these indeed should then get into a profession more suited towards their character.
Attempting to exclude management from their part of the responsibility to insure this issue is covered by adequate redundancy, to make failsafe, is grossly irresponsible to all.
Management allowing vans and cars used as school buses to be parked BEFORE inspected by someone in addition to the driver and monitor, end especially during weather that can kill, are among the most neglectful management acts I can imagine.
I simply can not imagine a competent manager out there that can not understand the basic concepts presented here.
Attempting to place exclusive blame on the bus driver is a failing practice, in that managers continuing to escape their part of the responsibility to help keep kids safe by using their bus drivers as scapegoats not only promotes ill-management but also promotes a hostile workplace environment.
From what I’m reading more often in the press may indicate that as this issue continues to come to light that the neglectful manager may be facing an eventual accounting that may exceed that of their subordinates.
But go ahead and continue to use bus drivers as scapegoats until that no longer works. Then please begin helping save lives by simply helping management everywhere accept their part of the responsibility to help keep kids safe.
Every time myself and those in agreement with the concept presented write a commentary to the press explaining the real and expanded issue brings us one step closer to this reality. And just by myself a great many commentaries are written in the press all over this great country.
Leave a child asleep on a parked bus for more than a few minutes to fifteen or so minutes, and to then attempt acceptence at exclusive blame toward the bus driver? Expect as well a commentary to find its way to your town’s community press bringing to light the neglect of management to insure children and their bus drivers are adequately covered.
I am not the one that turned a relatively safe event into a bazaar political and scapegoating spectacle. Dysfunctional Management did that and would expect that this sort of management malbehavior will eventually come around to biting management on the butt. (jk)
"If you don't want it printed, don't let it happen" - Aspen Daily News, Colorado
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There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 09/13/2006 09:43:04 AM |
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bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 10:03:01 AM
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In this case, the bus was parked at the driver's house between runs (as is a common practice at many bus companies and school districts nationwide). To place blame with the manager, one has to consider how the manager could have prevented this. Short of eliminating the practice of "parking out," the company would have to require a manager drive to the house of every driver who parks out to verify that the bus has been checked.
Drivers are trusted with the responsibility to do their job every day. Managers are responsible for taking all reasonable steps to hire and train qualified individuals and to enforce policies to the extent possible. Legally, the driver alone is responsible for checking the bus. |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 7:23:12 PM
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An interesting post.
The correct and effective options were accurately presented. Yet, in the next paragraph an excuse is attempted to deny the correct options given to insure children are safe and the bus drivers properly supported.
Myself, please be assured, would not allow any school bus parked on my property without appropriate insurance coverage provided that protects my property from liability and related vandalism.
And as far as the threat of termination were a post-check step missed - the bus goes back to the compound where management has the opportunity to provide adequate redundancy to assure no child is left alone on the bus and before the bus is driven home.
We have no child-check systems on our buses, (except our newest buses I believe) but that does not leave us without imagination. Some buses have a rear door lock plug that must be removed and placed in a small box that then allows the bus to start. The wise and the smart drivers secure the bus at the end of their run by placing that plug back into the door. Provides validation that the bus driver did walk to the back of the bus.
Another option is an automatic dog leash of sufficient length to reach the rear door of the bus. The leash is modified with an extended wrap that secures the back door. Buses with side doors have an in-line modification that secures the side door.
I can certainly agree that the inappropriate uses of a child left asleep on the school bus does make it necessary to check for a sleeping child each and every time after returning to the facility’s parking area. When not done then a penalty of some sort can be administered without the need of a scapegoat.
However, my assertion is to catch post-check violators before a child is ever left on the bus and to apply an appropriate and measured disciplinary action at that time, not waiting until a child is left on the bus which then triggers a more serious and sometimes outrageous outcome.
Claiming some legal position that might protect incompetent management seems simply an attempt to redirect away from management’s responsibility to successfully manage a safe fleet that helps protect children as well as the bus drivers occupational standing.
For an employer to ignore either of these management responsibilities warrants the bus drivers taking immediate precautions on the part of every bus driver working for that employer. That, most likely would mean keeping an attorney on retainer to deal with what may be employer threats that create a hostile workplace environment.
Every day - virtually without exception - a missed step involving a child here and one there occurs that a school or management committed -- something I catch on my own and based on effective training paid for OUT OF MY OWN POCKET, that helps me protect my schools, my employer and my community [and my kids] from serious potential litigation. Virtually every day during the beginning school year!
There are plenty of school bus drivers greater than I that have missed the step to check their bus and that resulted in a child left on board. That fact is more than adequate for me to establish for myself what my employer has failed to do - multiple processes that help insure no child is left on the school bus - a safe event in itself - but also covering a multitude of unsafe events management and schools can commit.
Any bus driver anywhere in this great nation that does not keep themselves protected, from those management hostilities that do exist at some facilities, are in grave error continuing with that employer, that is unless you have established protection for yourself that your employer has failed to provide.
For management to attempt to threaten their workers with a dysfunctional policy that does not help keep kids safe, as well as committing additional insult by promoting unjustified future harm to their employees, this is not something I would attempt to correct. That's the job of a competent attorney were an attempt made to attack with a bogus policy. And it would apply to employees working together or their union to correct the policy, not an individual out there on a limb and alone in that effort.
My best guess, after some years exploring this issue, suggests that some forty-percent of the school bus driver employers out there are competent, reliable, decent facilitates that myself and most anyone would be proud to be a part of.
The remainder deserve whatever civil suit comes their way, be that from a parent, from a maltreated employee or group of employees. But you bus drivers walking a line alone can not have that sort of assurance without retaining professional guidance that can set you up with future success when your employer has set you up for future failure.
Laidlaw says, "Leave a child, Leave Laidlaw."
So be it.
But Laidlaw bus drivers, the smart and the wise ones any way, this is your fancy slogan:
"Leave Laidlaw behind before Laidlaw leaves you behind"
If you stay, “Get a Clue - Get an Attorney on Retainer”
An excellent personal injury or employer attorney on retainer is an inexpensive investment when your good name and duty-bound interests are eventually and viciously attacked by an incompetent management team using you as a scapegoat for the missed step the employer expanded on with their additional missed steps.
But to prevail you school bus drivers out there must be prepared for success, not submitting to an eventual known potential failure your dysfunctional employer has prepared you for. This can include your employer denying long-term school bus drivers their retirement benefits.
You are much more valuable to the community as a school bus driver than you ever will be as a scapegoat.
Do what you gotta do - do all that your employer and your state's limited training can provide at their level - then go a step beyond to the point you are skilled at covering management’s and the school’s sometimes horrific mistakes that can place children in actual danger. Say not a word in criticism, but forget not every time you saved management or the school or a parent from their own missed steps or alleged incompetence.
Remembering the multitude of times you have delivered your employer and other adults from potential litigation and a child from potential harm is a powerful - POWERFUL - weapon against employer abuse of their employees if someday your attorney must use it. And never - ever launch an attack out of anger, bruised ego or self-pity, but only when the employer has abused to the point that your competent attorney - not you - thinks it's time:
A newbie attorney knows more about the law than most any bus driver or manager could ever hope to know. That's why employers have attorneys on retainer. Be smart in this strategy - be like your employer is against you.
Blessed are those school bus drivers that do not have a hostile workplace to deal with. Thank your managers most every day for their competence on the job and their decency toward the workers.
Don't let a day pass without complementing someone important to your effort, be that a competent manager, any administrator, any school staff member, any parent or any fellow school bus driver. Get this done before day’s end - every! - work! - day!! (jk)
"If you don't want it printed, don't let it happen" - Aspen Daily News, Colorado
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Hostage Takeover, bus fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.
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Edited by - JK on 09/14/2006 09:48:25 AM |
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william
Top Member
USA
1912 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2006 : 7:42:08 PM
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| James, James, James. Try as you might, nothing you said in your thread comes close to denigrating the common sense and obvious truth of 724's thread. |
William |
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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2006 : 8:10:59 PM
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How I see these issues - BOTTOM LINE is that it is the DRIVER's RESPONSIBILITY. Then, it is the managments RESPONSIBILITY to enforce the rules. I do not always blame Operations Managers for this -- if the Operations Manager reminds drivers about checking the bus, I don't think it's the manager's fault. It's not complicated to check a bus and it is the DRIVER'S reponsibility.
I said this in a previous post, everyday, myself and 3 other employees from operations check EACH bus. It only takes 20/23 minutes with four for 80 buses. If the world consisted of normal people, the amount of children left sleeping on a bus would be zero. |
Hotel's Ford Girardin |
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80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2006 : 9:48:58 PM
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william, what i meant was= by definition- according to Dictionary.com, bozo means "stupid, incompetent fool". Anyways.....
I don't understand why any manager would need to check any school bus for left behind kids. It's a simple task, just get up off your seat before you leave your bus and check, re check, make 100 percent sure there are no kids on the bus.....and that's it. |
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DanLJ
Advanced Member
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2006 : 06:17:59 AM
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Ahhhh yes JK - every school bus driver should have a lawyer on retainer, just in case they screw up and leave a child on a bus. Of course they could also use that lawyer if they didn't activate their lights when loading/unloading and a child gets hurt or killed by a passing vehicle, or maybe when they don't check their mirrors and run over the child standing by the side of the bus. . .
How ridiculous . . . it's a simple proposition, do your job and there won't be a problem.
Has it ever occurred to you that the "draconian" firing of a driver for leaving a child is the result of successful lawsuits filed against organizations where it has happened?
These days there is no need for actual injuries to occur for a parent to successfully sue and win the lottery, particularly when the jury hears that drivers who leave children on buses are retained . . . not hardly a good defense for the organization.
Before you get on a soapbox and claim that the driver is used as a "scapegoat" count how many times you have advocated resorting to litigation - even advocating having a lawyer on retainer. Society as a whole is ready to jump on the litigation bandwagon, hopeful that they too can win the "lottery" . . .
You demand redundant systems to ensure that the driver has done their job, who is to check the "checkers"? Where should one draw the line on redundancy? Where does one establish the line of responsibility? In your hypothetical redundant world, when and where does responsibility shift onto the shoulders of the person ultimately responsible for checking that bus?
One of your suggested redudancies is that every school should have a "system" to immediately ascertain the whereabouts of a child not in class, supposedly to ensure that the child was not left on the bus. You've also suggested that the bus be checked by a school official in the unloading zone, that supervisors check every bus when it is parked and that fellow drivers check each others buses.
In your "perfectly redundant" world that amounts to a minimum of three additional people to check buses plus the teacher advising the office that a child is absent requiring immediate phone calls to determine where that child might be. The results of those phone calls would then have to be forwarded back to the classroom.
All of this can be avoided with drivers taking the simple and <strong>required</strong> action of walking the bus to check for sleeping children. Imagine that, if one person does their job as they are supposed to, the need for all of the extra steps is eliminated.
In your "perfectly redundant" world things are turned upside down. Instead of transportation playing a supporting role in the education of our children by getting them to school, we now have the school and the transportation system protecting the driver who hasn't done their job.
What's more, when a child is found to be left on the bus, you suggest that the driver should be retained and that a supervisor or manager should be fired. And what if that school secretary making the phone calls can't reach a parent, do we fire the secretary? Or do we fire the Principal for not making sure the secretary did his/her job?
As the recent day care van incident illustrates, redundant systems are only as good as the people entrusted to use them. In that case checks and double checks were supposed to have been done, and the attendance record was falsified . . . while a child sat in a locked van where the temperature rose well above 120 degrees.
Your cause might be viewed as noble if you had the child's safety as a priority - but you don't. You advocate punishing a child who falls asleep - a perfectly natural and expected occurence with children.
Perhaps your "Captain" theory has caused your priorities and perspective to be turned upside down. Transportation personnel - including drivers, mechanics, managers, supervisors - have a direct supporting role in education. The education system does not exist to give us jobs, rather we have jobs to meet the needs of the children and the schools they attend.
It is our job to safely, effectively and efficiently tranport children to school. Those in our industry who do not fulfill their responsibilities should not be entrusted with our children - be they drivers, mechanics, supervisors or managers. |
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IC
Top Member
USA
3413 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2006 : 07:04:50 AM
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"Ahhhh yes JK - every school bus driver should have a lawyer on retainer, just in case they screw up and leave a child on a bus..."
No lawyer necessary. What IS necessary is a professional liabilty insurance policy (which also provides legal representation). I carry 2 professional liability policies that together provide $6 million of coverage in the event I am found to be negligent in any incident arising from my operation of the school bus.
The cost is minimal....about $1000 per year. VERY cheap, for the peace of mind it provides.
Back on topic....leaving a child on the bus is inexcusable, in my opinion. I make at least 3 trips fore and aft....getting down on all fours with a flashlight to check under all seats. The other night, upon arrival at the yard, another driver stopped me with a question. I got all the way home that night and for the life of me wasn't sure if I had done my check, due to the other driver interrupting my routine. Back to the yard I went (10 miles in heavy traffic)...I wouldn't have slept a wink that night if I hadn't! |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2006 : 07:24:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by DanLJ
... You demand redundant systems to ensure that the driver has done their job, who is to check the "checkers"? Where should one draw the line on redundancy? Where does one establish the line of responsibility? In your hypothetical redundant world, when and where does responsibility shift onto the shoulders of the person ultimately responsible for checking that bus? ...
Best advice concerning the question quoted above is simply to ask Detroit Schools Transportation Services.
Concerning, "One of your suggested redundancies is that every school should have a "system" to immediately ascertain the whereabouts of a child not in class, supposedly to ensure that the child was not left on the bus. You've also suggested that the bus be checked by a school official in the unloading zone, that supervisors check every bus when it is parked and that fellow drivers check each others buses.
You may have missed a step, resulting in confusing me and what I've said with some else’s post.
You may have missed another step, in that the remainder of your questions and presentations have already been answered or explained in previous posts on this thread or elsewhare on other threads that you also have recently visited. No need to repeat here unless redundancy is also required here for a few.
Enjoy the weekend. (jk)
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Hostage Takeover, bus fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 09/16/2006 07:28:18 AM |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2006 : 07:40:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by IC
... No lawyer necessary. What IS necessary is a professional liabilty insurance policy (which also provides legal representation). I carry 2 professional liability policies that together provide $6 million of coverage in the event I am found to be negligent in any incident arising from my operation of the school bus.
The cost is minimal....about $1000 per year. VERY cheap, for the peace of mind it provides.
Back on topic....leaving a child on the bus is inexcusable, in my opinion. I make at least 3 trips fore and aft....getting down on all fours with a flashlight to check under all seats. The other night, upon arrival at the yard, another driver stopped me with a question. I got all the way home that night and for the life of me wasn't sure if I had done my check, due to the other driver interrupting my routine. Back to the yard I went (10 miles in heavy traffic)...I wouldn't have slept a wink that night if I hadn't!
Oh my goodness. The lawyers are going to appreciate you to no end in the event you are distracted yet again and upon returning to the lot it has already been discovered that you left a child behind on the bus.
The more liability you carry, the more eager a parent and their lawyers are to make good use of your considerations.
Myself? Limited, so as not to overly excite the lawyers, along with an excellent option that should only be discussed between the bus driver and a lawyer.
The question I have begs an answer: What sort of motivation was in place that caused you to drive all the way back to the lot, doing that yourself rather than calling your boss, or calling an established contact person that lives near the facility and reporting that you may have missed completing a full post-check for a sleeping child?
And these:
How long did it take to drive home, then drive all the way back to the lot?
What would you have done next in the event you were in a crash while returning to the bus lot?
Had you reported the missed step immediately, your supervisor or contact person could have covered a child still on board the bus much quicker then you driving 10 miles in heavy traffic to do so yourself.
And after completing the check yourself, did you then report the event and the outcome to your supervisor that evening or the next day?
If you did, what was the response? If not, why not?
Some might perceive your activities bordering on an unhealthy and excessive reaction of some sort.
Concern for the potential of a child left alone on the bus might be part of that, but you waited a considerable time for that to be the only motivation.
A part of what you report doing might be excessive, even unhealthy. What do you think and who do you think might be causing some of that? (You do not need to answer this question here but consider it with yourself and someone you trust.) (jk)
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Hostage Takeover, bus fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.
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Edited by - JK on 09/16/2006 09:40:18 AM |
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OperationsM
Top Member
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2006 : 08:37:59 AM
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| Yes 80Amtram, managers shouldn't have to check the buses but some people are plain and simple, idiots, and that's how the world is. Really, I don't HAVE to check the buses, but I still go ahead and do so. |
Hotel's Ford Girardin |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2006 : 08:51:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by OperationsM
Yes 80Amtram, managers shouldn't have to check the buses but some people are plain and simple, idiots, and that's how the world is. Really, I don't HAVE to check the buses, but I still go ahead and do so.
I'm jumping in here. What I can accept is that you do check the buses after the drivers have parked or before the drivers park the buses. That's a good thing that effects redundancy necessary to cover the kids and drivers until, if ever, this issue returns to something more rational industry-wide. (jk)
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Hostage Takeover, bus fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.
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Edited by - JK on 09/16/2006 08:58:21 AM |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2006 : 09:15:44 AM
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I like this thread. It is most interesting.
Again - No one, not one, not a few and not the many, and not any here on the side of treating school bus drivers decently are suggesting, proposing, implying as a possibility, scheming or advocating that the bus driver has no responsibility when leaving a sleeping child on the bus. The opposite is true.
Dysfunctional employers and what would appear incompetent, immature or hostile managers have turned a relatively safe event into a bazaar political and scapegoating spectacle.
Dysfunctional Management did that, not bus drivers failing to perform a post-check. And except that competent administrations intervene would expect that this sort of management malbehavior will eventually come around to biting all employers on the butt.
Leaving a child asleep on the school bus is a relatively safe event. It is one of the safest missed steps a school bus driver can make, and ever safer than a multitude of the unsafe and dangerous missed steps some management and schools can commit virtually every day, if not EVERY DAY, that the skilled school bus driver intervenes in.
The most common comment among functional and dysfunction management alike say the same thing: "Check the bus for a sleeping child after each run."
But that statement has evolved to entirely different meanings from the functional manager as opposed to the dysfunctional manager.
The most common among the functional is the statement, "We Failed." And these words match their actions taken.
The most common term among the dysfunctional is the statement, "The bus driver failed." And these words match their actions taken.
Because the employer may be functional does not eliminate terminating an employee for missing the step discussed in this thread. It depends. The functional have options. The dysfunctional have so-called future losers, bums and bozos driving their school buses.
When a step is missed the functional leader is skilled and ready to restore. The dysfunctional manager is skilled and ready to destroy.
Abused bus drivers can experience difficulties resisting abusing those vulnerable to their own authority - the schoolchildren riding their school buses.
From there:
Dysfunctional management is reactive, not proactive, and do not seem to understand or make the decision to ignore this reality:
"If you don't want it printed, don't let it happen"
The dysfunctional feeds the crowd, agitates the event with false statements about the event and false accusations towards the bus driver - deflects from their part of the responsibility to manage a safe fleet - deny any part of management’s responsibility to help protect children with adequate redundancy that works and before it happens - claims the bus drivers are already properly supported, yet continue to fail making the system adequately redundant (failsafe) – and abuses community resources by misusing school bus drivers as scapegoats. And may state a false guarantee and what is most likely a lie: "It will never happen again."
Dysfunctional management denies any responsibility toward themselves for what happened - blames the bus driver (exclusive blame) - threatens their remaining bus drivers concerning a known future potential failure - does not focus on preventing an event before it happens, but focus instead on management protecting themselves after it happens.
The 'self-protection' schemes, false-pride and risk taking are among the most obvious attributes that blind management toward developing the skills that would apply to interdependent proactive problem solving with their bus drivers.
When the dysfunctional manager addresses the issue with the drivers after the event, a common indicator of a dysfunction includes a dictation to the drivers concerning what the drivers can do, rather than management asking how management can help prevent this event from happening in the future.
Previous already known training is presented to provide that every bus driver is informed in what they already know. The promise to the community is now completed as far as the dysfunctional manager is concerned.
The dysfunctional environment offers little to nothing toward preventing a similar event in the future. Child check systems might be installed that may help eliminate unintentional missed post checks and monitors may be added to the bus environment. These activities eventually seem to end up another waste of resources. Now two can be fired rather than just one.
Making more threats to the remaining bus drivers (and monitors where used) completes the dysfunctional manager's tasks concerning this issue.
What need is there to go any further when the dysfunctional manager successfully deflects from his or her responsibilities by using scapegoating routines and claims the problem was solved by terminating the bus driver?
For the most part and after the storm has passed the facility returns to its normal, dysfunctional and hostile workplace environment until the next storm strikes.
Functional manager activities include, "We failed," responses - maintains a proactive interdependent relationship with the drivers by asking the bus drivers - not dictating to the drivers - what post-check services management can provide to prevent this event from happening BEFORE a child is again found alone and asleep on the school bus.
The very best ask the above question before a child is ever left alone on a school bus. (Actually, this option is likely only available to new facilities that have not yet begun transporting schoolchildren.)
Functional Managers may present possible ideas and pitfalls that help guide the process along, would hardly ever be found threatening their bus drivers, but interacting and cultivating on equal levels during the analysis process.
The functional know the productive manager does not usually need to bark orders and make threats, but leads and wins with proper training and enforcement, effective support that works, and pay that retains.
The functional manager develops interdependent relationships with his or her bus drivers, promoting the same interdependence between the bus drivers and their students, and between the bus drivers and parents and school staff.
The functional manager does not separate above and from or act independent of his or her subordinates in the effort to safely transport children. Leadership involving transporting schoolchildren is not separate from but in partnership with.
The functional manager may not be a friend to the employees, may not like some employees for personal reasons, but is most certainly an advocate and loyal to his or her bus drivers and their efforts to help keep kids safe.
Do you see the similarities between the dysfunctional manager and their bus drivers, as well as between the functional managers and their bus drivers? Both often hire what they themselves are like.
The bus drivers most at risk seem those that say: I will never make that mistake.
In my opinion, these sorts of bus drivers have already missed a step, having failed in rational thought before the potential future failure has even arrived. These are not prepared - blind to themselves and their limitations – some are fearful of their employer, deny that fearfulness – some are manipulators not to be trusted - and some are excessively vulnerable to following directives in other matters that can subject children to actual dangers.
How many managers have no procedure for staff, other than the bus driver and monitor, to check Vans and Cars used to transport children and BEFORE those types of vehicles are allowed to be parked - doing this at least during vulnerable weather conditions?
Our community's school bus service seems to have solved the issue of Vans and Cars used as school buses. We no longer use these types of vehicles to transport schoolchildren because of the various dangers they present, including killing a child if left alone in these vehicles for a relatively short time during hot weather.
The Vans? The Cars? Gone.
No law is necessary among the functional to fulfill this commitment to helping keep kids safe. (I personally consider both vans and cars safe vehicles for transporting children in certain situations.)
What I claim is a management dysfunction among some 60-percent of the school bus transportation facilities in this country forces rational thinking school bus drivers to either get out before subjected to the bazaar, or take some sort of protective steps in response to the employer's threats.
This, of course, may include school bus drivers themselves establishing some sort of redundant check system that can help ease the manager's dysfunctional threats.
Some administrations and school boards may themselves be functional but for a variety of reasons may be reluctant to fire a manager they know processes some dysfunctional attributes. There may be other attributes that are fruitful, worthwhile and sufficient to retain that manager.
Instead of firing the manager the administration or school board themselves may perform a balancing act of sorts involving policy and intervention directives that helps ease the dysfunctional manager's threats.
To ignore the potential future misuses of the school bus driver, and to allow ones' fellows and oneself to be setup for future failure, is nothing short of foolishness. Such is a destructive thing some bus drivers do to themselves and to their fellows, sometimes-unconscionable behavior that has no place in this industry.
This issue has evolved to a point that the least among us have adequate information to make a knowledgeable, reasonable decision, concerning what actions might be taken before this event happens, and what might be some of the actions to take after this event happens.
Please notice that, "Check the bus for a sleeping child after each run," was covered at the beginning of this post and for very good reason. It is one step toward helping keep kids safe, not the only steps involved.
The considerations discussed in this post are not for the dumb or the smart bus drivers and managers.
What is presented in this post is for the wise bus driver that can discover that the most practical answer may be to leave that employer, use protection, or not hire on in the first place.
And what is discussed here is also for the wise managers that are willing to stand up and take a step forward toward helping end the so-called school bus driver shortage at his or her facility.
Enjoy the weekend. (jk)
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There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.
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Edited by - JK on 09/16/2006 10:08:17 AM |
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william
Top Member
USA
1912 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2006 : 09:35:14 AM
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JK. As much as I respect your opinions I must ask this question...don't you think your argument of negligent, lazy and derelict drivers leaving children behind due to being "distracted" or merely making a "mistake" is wearing thin? When the last child leaves that bus at a given school or gets off in the afternoon, what could possibly be so distracting that the driver would fail to check their bus? Could the rush to get home induce them to make the conscious and wilful "mistake" of not checking their bus? When they get back to the yard what now except laziness and negligence, would keep them from checking the bus?
I have asked you before to explain how a manager or anyone else can establish a redundant system that works when you factor in the bozo element. We don't have safeguard systems on our buses, so I've never seen one, but from what I read here, it seem these systems will do everything required of them until disabled by drivers too lazy to walk to the rear of the bus. We have checkers in our yard, but even that cannot be considered entirely foolproof.
But JK, I take comfort in knowing that if I worked for you and I made the "mistake" of being too lazy to check my bus and left a kid behind, you would be right there willing to stand right up with me and say " I am the manager so it was my fault this happened". |
William |
Edited by - william on 09/16/2006 09:37:59 AM |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2006 : 12:27:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by william
JK. As much as I respect your opinions I must ask this question...don't you think your argument of negligent, lazy and derelict drivers leaving children behind due to being "distracted" or merely making a "mistake" is wearing thin?
Sorry about the delay getting back to you. I was redundantly editing my last post.
To answer your first question, and regardless of your persistent missed steps to consider my questions, my answer to you is simply this:
Well, no. Actually I think my position is getting stronger after additional discussion with a few experts that research employer bullying and abusive policy-making.
Suppose it is possible my resources could be wrong and therefore my position could be wrong. Would suppose then that leaves you some room to continue this debate I'm enjoying and learning from.
You seem a peculiar person. Did you read what you wrote below before allowing its inclusion in your post?
I have asked you before to explain how a manager or anyone else can establish a redundant system that works when you factor in the bozo element. We don't have safeguard systems on our buses, so I've never seen one, but from what I read here, it seem these systems will do everything required of them until disabled by drivers too lazy to walk to the rear of the bus.
Then this in the same paragraph:
We have checkers in our yard, but even that cannot be considered entirely foolproof.
The answer to this question is simply: It depends.
Is your system adequately foolproof, including policy, for the level of expected repercussions in the event a child is left alone on the school bus?
If so, you have adequately covered the proof part of foolproof, a job well done.
If not, you are thinking foolish thoughts and may need to first foolproof yourself.
Take no comfort in knowing that if you worked for me and made the "mistake" of missing any important step, and whether or not that mistake made it into the press, that somehow you would be coddled and protected from the mean world out there. You are a professional bus driver, are you not?
Regardless, you are correct, in that I would make it clear that any accusation, concerning laziness, incompetence or any other derogatory remark from any source toward you, would be an insult to this community, and toward me and my trust in you.
You would be right, in that I would demand an immediate backing off from those attacking William, one of my best school bus drivers - that continuing to attack William is unacceptable.
Any that persisted in continuing against you, I would ask those to please join our fleet and drive school bus:
“ We need the knowledge, and the new blood in our ranks, and the willingness to help keep kids safe you seem to be proposing.”
I would turn that crowd into a hiring opportunity, with applications, license requirement forms, background forms, drug test forms and all the other crap that tends to empty a room full of liars.
I would not say I am the manager, since I do not like that term. But I would say I am the person in charge of that department am I not?
And I would say the attacks against William must stop.
I would also say I am the one responsible to make sure this political hot-button event does not happen, and that I failed William before he could fail us.
You can trust I would take my share of the heat, provided there were not a series of indicators suggesting something was not right with your activities, such as dementia setting in or some other anomaly disrupting your skills.
The pattern of your conduct, your history, would have dominance over the emotions of a crowd. A functional policy, established during calmer times with help from parents and bus drivers and promoted in the press, would guide us through this emotional event and help determine what happens next.
The aware would already know what happens next. The liars and busybodies would be ignorant and vulnerable.
I would not be standing alone like the fool and prideful too often attempt. I would be standing with an army that can not retreat without just cause:
"We are proceeding according to the policy approved by our community's school board before people started screaming accusations at us - a policy that calm and interested parents, dedicated school bus drivers and related school staff members helped establish and was agreed on with the union before presenting to the school board for approval."
Were you anything near the capable person I believe you to be, then for what reason would I abandon someone as useful and dedicated as you seem to be? I would need professional school bus drivers, not scapegoats.
It would be foolish and dysfunctional on my part to abandon most any bus driver over a missed step that can be proven not to be the dangerous event the ignorant, advantage taking parents and unscrupulous lawyers claim it to be.
But that does not mean you would escape discipline. One look in my eyes would not be a fun event. You violated my trust in you and you broke our community’s heart.
A trust has been violated, a fleet momentarily disrupted, and our good names and promise to the community broken. And still, I would defend you in this matter, because you not super human.
Regardless, suspended without pay. Additional training would include attacking a dog leash to the rear door at the end of every trip for a period of time and even if you had an electronic child check system on your bus, someone to report to when completing each trip - perhaps a bus driver that had made the same mistake many years ago. And someone would check your bus within a few minutes of your arrival.
You would not be leaving any more kids on the bus - that would be covered. And were you to miss a post-check, or any of the temporary expectations, suspended again and again until you or I was convinced your time driving school bus for this district was no longer workable.
But that would be something I would expect you and myself to decide and recommend to the administration, not a decision made by some screaming crowd carrying a hangman’s rope.
You would be encouraged, monitored and congratulated for consistency, right along with the other drivers. You would not be humiliated or bullied. Every year at one of the annual driver's meetings, which would include training relevant to your event, time would be scheduled and you would be expected to tell your story to the drivers, mostly for the benefit of the new drivers.
Every driver that made a serious mistake at some point during their career and that had use would be scheduled time to tell their story at various training sessions relevant to their event. It would have to be presented as a professional training event story, not a war story.
And the most successful drivers in our fleet, and a few of the ambitious from neighboring fleets, one of which could also be you in exchange, would be scheduled time during training. These contributors, including their unfortunate experiences, would be presented to help teach our bus drivers what dedication means, what persistence means, what duty means, what honor means, and how those things relate to our occupation's noble effort to help keep kids safe.
And the most successful and professional in our fleet over time would be readied to tell their story to the press on occasion, to expose them to the community and the community to them, and to educate the press and the community about our fleet and the people that make driving school bus so easy it looks like a child could do it.
Another oppertunity for good folks to join our team would conclude their interviews.
Within a few years or less I would have no blasted so-called school bus driver shortage, but a waiting list of potentials, decent community partners to help me keep kids safe.
I have learned to delegate, to duplicate my efforts so that what I could not teach in a hundred years could be taught within a year.
I am no fool. You would be the fool to think you could escape your duty to our community, to violate that duty, and then simply take the easy path through termination over some event like the one in discussion here.
Rubbish!
Hard work ahead for as long as determined and plenty to account for, else fire yourself!
Do not trouble me or my time with the frivolous things you can do yourself. (jk)
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Hostage Takeover, bus fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.
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Edited by - JK on 09/16/2006 1:52:03 PM |
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IC
Top Member
USA
3413 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2006 : 1:46:19 PM
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"A part of what you report doing might be excessive, even unhealthy. What do you think and who do you think might be causing some of that? (You do not need to answer this question here but consider it with yourself and someone you trust.) (jk)"
LOL...Thank you for your concern for my mental health, JK!
I suspect that many regard YOUR comments as often excessive and unhealthy, I know I do. However, my background is electrical engineering, not psychoanalysis, so I will refrain from offering you my unqualified advice in that regard.
As to your questions...of course I didn't call anyone to report that I wasn't sure if I had checked my bus. Don't be ridiculous. I just had the slightest, nagging doubt that I had....so I went back to put my mind at ease. Had I actually discovered a sleeping child aboard, I would have reported it immediately. I used the term "yard" euphemistically...my bus is parked at a school. Someone would have had to be dispatched to go there and check the bus...I merely dispatched myself for the task.
As for the amount of my liability coverage....no one, and I mean NO ONE, is privy to that information. My insurance carriers assure me that this info is in no databases accessable to potential adversaries.
Don't you think that this is also in the carriers' best interests? The amount of my coverage will become known only after I have been found negligent and a judgement entered against me in a court of law.
Please don't waste your time dissecting every word I've just written. |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2006 : 2:25:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by IC
... LOL...Thank you for your concern for my mental health, JK!
I suspect that many regard YOUR comments as often excessive and unhealthy, I know I do. However, my background is electrical engineering, not psychoanalysis, so I will refrain from offering you my unqualified advice in that regard. ...
I had good reason to believe the above was coming, including the possible mention of your engineering background. You like to mention that.
And I appreciate as well what you are saying. But I must have made an error in that I was not referring to your mental state, but the potential level of stress at your workplace, the demands that might be motivating you to do some things a certain way.
I do believe that we both know that neither of us are therapists. The closest my background comes to that sort of thing would be concerning consumer behavior.
Perhaps my education in electronics (Signal Corps.) might cross-reveal, in as much as some people and electricity do seem to seek out the least path of resistance to ground themselves, per say. Sometimes that's a good thing. Sometimes not.
What I noticed, after the funny stuff, is that you did not take the time to actually answer my most important questions.
That’s ok, of course, answer the few questions that offers the least resistance to what you say you did and leave the rest behind.
I had to take some parents to court many years ago. They thought certain financial information was well hidden, but that did not work out and they were plenty upset about that.
Something new you mentioned is now available?
If so, glad you're covered.
Something else that interests me. Do you think it rather odd that some one you know makes comments [that are] often excessive and unhealthy, yet offers options to manage an issue? And that those that I would presume you know are not excessive, yet provide themselves no options to managege an event? (jk)
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There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.
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Edited by - JK on 09/16/2006 2:39:46 PM |
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IC
Top Member
USA
3413 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2006 : 2:50:48 PM
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I am quite proud of my degree...it has provided my family a very comfortable life. I'm sorry you construed that as bluster...it wasn't intended that way.
Your comparison of liability limits and other assets is apples and oranges. Take out your auto insurance card and flip it over. After "in case of accident", it will say: NEVER discuss the amount of your insurance with anyone. That is the First Commandment of the insurance biz, so I doubt your contention that this info is easily obtainable.
The stress at my workplace is not excessive...in fact it is a wonderful place to work. It is one of the largest pupil transportation systems in the USA, and great emphasis is placed on checking for sleeping students, as well it should. We transport over 110,000 students per day and not a single day goes by without scrambling to find missing students. I very often answer radio calls requesting a unit to proceed to a parking location (we have hundreds)to check a bus for a student.
That's all I was saying....I regard leaving a student aboard as just about as serious as it gets. That's why I went back to my bus...it's just so important. I would have gambled if it was something like possibly having left the lights on, etc.
I'm sorry I missed some of your questions...I find your writing style quite tedious...and I admit to "skimming" your posts. |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2006 : 6:42:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by IC
I am quite proud of my degree...it has provided my family a very comfortable life. I'm sorry you construed that as bluster...it wasn't intended that way....
Where did you get bluster? The reason I suspected that you might mention your background is simply because you did that in your profile and in another post I read. People do that all the time, including me. Signal Corps, corporate sales, press and fashion photography, marketing, consumer behavior and on and on. If what you did was bluster then same for me.
I simply wanted to relate the idea that some occupations can be cross-related - electrical flow and what some people do as well. Corporate sales, consumer behavior and parents.
But what I believed was coming was your response to the excessive and unhealthy comment, virtually predictable when asking about an issue that seems unusual. Driving home, then ten miles back through heavy traffic caught my interest.
It had to take much longer to do that then call the boss or a contact person near the facility - someone that could do the check and if by a remote chance their was a child on board that could be taken care of much quicker easing the situation somewhat.
I was simply considering what were the issues and the motivations?
And, had you gotten into a crash on your way back to the lot would what next? Your vehicle was totaled - Would you then call the boss or whatever contact person to check the bus?
Not that important I would suppose. I was simply having difficulty trying to understand the reasons for the actions you took. Don't have to know that to continue forward.
Concerning my writing style, yes, my writing style can be tedious to read. I tend to avoid one-line responses.
Regardless, the post to you was not lengthy - do you think the questions were tedious? I didn't think that the case at all. (jk)
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Hostage Takeover, bus fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.
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Edited by - JK on 09/16/2006 6:43:09 PM |
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IC
Top Member
USA
3413 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2006 : 8:33:35 PM
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JK: "But what I believed was coming was your response to the excessive and unhealthy comment, virtually predictable when asking about an issue that seems unusual. Driving home, then ten miles back through heavy traffic caught my interest."
>>>>
IC: Again, I was skimming, and failed to pick up on your "subtle nuances". I was just taking a breather from cutting the grass.
>>>>
JK: "It had to take much longer to do that then call the boss or a contact person near the facility - someone that could do the check and if by a remote chance their was a child on board that could be taken care of much quicker easing the situation somewhat." I was simply considering what were the issues and the motivations?"
>>>>
IC: No it didn't...I got back there faster than ANYONE else could have been dispatched. My motivation was the .00001% chance that I had, in fact, failed to check my bus. Why in the hell would I call the boss, when I could handle the situation faster...he/she would have had to deal with the SAME traffic.
I will be quite honest with you, JK, I don't know what the penalty is here for leaving a kid on a bus (who was not injured)...it may not be summary dismissal, but it would certainly involve some time off without pay and a "retraining" session. We are always short over 100 drivers, so draconian punishment is reserved for the most flagrant cases of malfeasance. (You oughtta see our body shops, LOL!)
>>>>
JK: "And, had you gotten into a crash on your way back to the lot would what next? Your vehicle was totaled - Would you then call the boss or whatever contact person to check the bus? Not that important I would suppose. I was simply having difficulty trying to understand the reasons for the actions you took. Don't have to know that to continue forward."
IC: Damn, JK, I never even thought about a tragic accident occurring on my way back to check the bus! The skies were a bit unsettled that night...I could have been struck by lightning! And Dulles International Airport is nearby...an errant Boeing 747 could have crashed and squashed my car like a bug, as I waited for the light to change! I guess if something like that had happened I would have had to ask St Peter to send the Angel Gabriel down to check my bus. But, if I had survived the crash....I might have considered calling the Area II Operations Center to request that my bus be checked.
Say, JK, are you single? My (widowed) mother-in-law can argue at length (24/7!) about ANYTHING...I think you guys would really hit it off! (and she's pretty HOT for a 59 y/o woman!) |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 01:20:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by IC
... Say, JK, are you single? My (widowed) mother-in-law can argue at length (24/7!) about ANYTHING...I think you guys would really hit it off! (and she's pretty HOT for a 59 y/o woman!)
Not single and very pleased with my lady since the first day we met some 15 years ago.
It would seem that you thought I was being flippant or attempting to trap you. What I was attempting to do was understand your reasoning. 10x2 miles through heavy traffic caught my attention.
The remote possibility of a crash was not what I was referring to. I was referring to in the event of a crash and presuming you were ok but now delayed for a longer period. I probably did not explain that very well.
I presumed one motive, but could not know if there were other motives without asking.
I probably would do just as you did, check the bus myself as well, and would give no further thought unless by some fluke a child was on board. But that is what I would do, not necessarily someone else.
As it is my bus is redundantly self-checked throughout the route and when returning to the lot. In the morning students are released seat by seat. I'm probably self-covered adequately but it can not possibly be 100-percent failsafe because too many greater than me have missed the step and tripped with no one to restore them.
But the most revealing is the opposing view, concerning other staff double-checking the buses, claiming that approach can not be 100-percent failsafe - that no system is 100-percent failsafe.
If that is true then it should be self-evident that every bus driver in this country has been set up for future failure.
Bus driver shortage? I would not be inclined to call that worsening anomaly a shortage of people available to drive school bus. In reality we are faced with an abundance of people unwilling to work under the current conditions offered.
We can't honestly blame the many for making that rational decision. And it would appear that employers must know they are now hiring more of the ignorant, especially when the person can't even speak English, and hiring more of those that can hide their drug and excessive alcohol use, as well as more of those that can successfully falsify their background.
So many employers putting drivers in our school buses without a validated background check - months can go by not knowing who is behind the wheel of that school bus. Those people need jobs too, too often now also know they can slip into our system unchecked, and our system seems more accommodating these days.
The more decent bus drivers terminated without just cause, the more opportunty to hire someone worse than a so-called bozo that left a child alone on the school bus. The next is increasinly a potential mega diesater.
The risk increases dramaticaly on a national scale when unecesary teminations of the decent escalate. The next one behind the wheel of a decent driver terminated unjustly could be a pedopile. That risk is increasing, not deceasing, in my opinion. The ratio increases because the base pool has been modified to help encourage that outcome.
And the more the press reports on those true bozos hired, and all the other increasing anomalies, then the more good folks that escalate no interest in driving school bus.
Don't know how all this will end but do know which enities started it. And know it was not the school bus drivers. (jk)
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Hostage Takeover, bus fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 09/17/2006 01:58:24 AM |
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william
Top Member
USA
1912 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 01:50:13 AM
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By way of clarification, JK, the system I was referring to is the electronic child check system. I think IC's returning to the yard to check his bus deserves praise and not derision, and it seems clear to me that he was motivated by honor, integrity, and a desire to do his job to the best of his ability. If I pick up four children, take them to school and count them as they get off the bus, I still check the bus. If I was home and could not remember whether or not I had checked for sleepers, I would most certainly return to the yard and do a check or re-check, as the case may be. Why? Because integrity and honor would compel me to do so.
The "checker" system that we use has worked fine in that no one has yet left a sleeper behind. The only problem I have with this system is that there is always the careless driver who does not check the bus, knowing that someone at the yard will.
JK, if I ever decide to run for public office, I don't think that I could get a better campaign manager than you. You have a certain flair for spin that would make Karl Rove proud. And just because you see no danger in leaving a sleeping child behind doesn't mean that those of us that do are ignorant. Were there to be a survey taken concerning that question, I feel that there would be no doubt which position would prevail, your dubious statistics notwithstanding.
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William |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 02:53:00 AM
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My dubious statistics? You've done no research and yet would call anyone else’s statistics dubious?
I've yet to find ANY stories concerning this issue with even one event supporting otherwise. And no other source has thusfar been located. Nearly twenty some thousand school bus related injury stories searched - nothing.
Were I to find one do you believe that I would hide that sadness from this forum?
You find em.' buck-up, do the honorable thing and prove me wrong. That's how it works - not invention - but facts to support your position. It would have a significant effect on my position. You would like that change, would you not?
Find me one per year these past five years out of millions of kids transported per year that when one on occasion was unintentionally left alone on an actual school bus and that as a result died, or was horribly injured as determined by a competent medical doctor, or was abducted.
If that does not suit you, then find me 5 over the past 10-years that fit the above criteria.
I've found a few over the past five years where the driver had deliberately kept a child on board with the intent to commit among the most evil of acts that a child could be subjected to.
I found one where the child was gagged and tied up in the back of the bus. The driver parked his bus on the lot intending to return later after everyone had left.
Tell me how only the driver checking the bus for a sleeping child would have kept that child safe on that evil bus driver's bus? What gadget on a school bus would cover that secret intention?
And by way of clarification you must also be saying that I deserve praise and not derision, that it is clear my effort in your reference was motivated by honor, integrity, and a desire to do my job to the best of my ability. I say this because you can note I that I acknowledged would probably do the same thing as IC.
I would not consider your praise spin, but would think it a deception, because we also know that under your standard I am a future lazy bozo. We know that because many better than me have missed checking for a sleeping child. They tripped and were not restored.
I may possess a certain flair for so-called spin, but I am not in denial concerning this issue. (jk)
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Edited by - JK on 09/17/2006 02:56:01 AM |
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william
Top Member
USA
1912 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2006 : 6:35:48 PM
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Your "research" is dubious and self-serving because there have been instances of children being frostbitten and other minor injuries after being left behind on buses, but I understand that you do not consider anything other than a "horrible injury" or death worthy to be considered an injury. By-the-way, how extensive has this "research" that you keep alluding to been anyway? I dare say that you have visited each state and checked the medical records since the beginning of school buses until the present time. Tell me, has your "research" consisted of anything other than entering a couple of words into your Google search engine?
You don't need to misquote me or question my probity to try to make your point. You know full well that the people I call bozos are not the consciencious, concerned and dedicated people that contribute to this forum. Were you to leave a child behind I would consider it a genuine mistake or perhaps even an aberration, but in any case I would never entertain for one minute the thought that you did not check your bus before leaving. I have said many times that anyone human can make a mistake, even you and me. Let me rephrase that JK. I know that I am not infallible, but you'll have to speak for yourself. |
William |
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Ark
Active Member
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2006 : 03:33:50 AM
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Medford is not far from where I live. I drive for a different company than the one mentioned. Unfortunately what happened was on one of the first days of school. One of the children got off on the wrong bus stop. There was a big to do on the news here about that too. The parents tried to sue the company and have the driver fired. First time schoolers need to be tagged by the parents and the school before they get on the busses. Parents need to be at the bus stops for them. We had aids trying to put children on the busses and didnt even know their legal names. I know I for one had to refuse entrance until a proper name was given. The school was blaming the parents for lack of tagging. But once that child is on my bus, Im responsible for stuff that sometimes I dont even know about. Cuts scratches, I have to be bus police, social worker, clothing rememberer, etc. etc. My company says Im the captain of my ship. If it goes down, I go down with it. Anna
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 06:05:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by william
... Were you to leave a child behind I would consider it a genuine mistake or perhaps even an aberration, but in any case I would never entertain for one minute the thought that you did not check your bus before leaving. ...
Based on your posts concerning this issue I would have to consider the above dubious. A half-wit can determine your position on this issue.
A missed post-check is seldom the issue, the actual issue is a missed post check with a child left asleep on the bus. Were this not the case most our nation's fleet would depleted within a few years.
I've done my homework. I would have to presume that because you did not flash back with a deceased child, horribly injured or abducted as a result of left behind asleep on an actual school bus, that you found none.
The category established were claims of these possibilities made in support of immediate termination. I'm simply stating that no such events have been discovered. And it appears you have none to report as well. In the event you find one please feel free to post it.
The closest I could find to children left alone on an actual school bus that resulted in death was in 1931 at Pleasant Hill School in Towner, Colorado. From In Loving Memory:
One of the worst tragedies in the history of Colorado occurred on the plains south of Towner when the Pleasant Hill school bus driven by Mr. Carl Miller, was stalled in a severe blizzard which raged about two days resulting in the death of five children, Robert Brown (9); Mary Miller (9); Kenneth Johnson (7); Louise Stonebraker (14); Orla Untiedt (7); and [the bus driver] Carl Miller (33). Teachers in charge of the children, Miss Maude Moser and F. Frieday, had discussed with Mr. Miller advisability of endeavoring to return the children to their homes. It was recalled by past experiences in snow storms that snow blew in at the windows of the building, and that it was difficult to keep them comfortably warm. The intensity of the storm was noted, and the decision was made to rush the children home as soon as possible. When storm had became too severe to continue, Miller attempted to return to the school but the bus stalled and remained that way until after the storm. When the bus was found the children were all unconscious and at first it was believed they had all perished. They were taken to a farmhouse a few miles away and from there they were taken to Lamar, the ones most severely frozen by plane and the others by autos. Source: The writings of C. Frost Ligget.
The bus driver did not want to chance it but school staff insisted. Already exhausted Mr. Miller died after he eventually left the bus in an attempt to get help.
"If you don't want it printed, don't let it happen" - Aspen Daily News, Colorado
(jk)
Click Here for IN LOVING MEMORY Archives".
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There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.
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Edited by - JK on 09/21/2006 10:23:13 PM |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2006 : 10:52:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by IC
... I will be quite honest with you, JK, I don't know what the penalty is here for leaving a kid on a bus (who was not injured)...it may not be summary dismissal, but it would certainly involve some time off without pay and a "retraining" session. We are always short over 100 drivers, so draconian punishment is reserved for the most flagrant cases of malfeasance. (You oughtta see our body shops, LOL!)
>>>>
You may find this somewhat humorous in that I am guilty skimming your last post and missed the above paragraph.
I don't know for a fact what my community's school district policy and not certain I want to know.
My primary focus is the safety of the kids, not worrying about my job. I suspect your reasoning is similar.
There was no policy in the past and that may still be the case. I'll have to ask about any policy at some point or try a search of our school district's policies.
We have no child check systems (except on the newest buses I believe). My bus has a key lock that secures the rear door and also disables the engine. I use that as my child check device at the end of every run. (jk)
FREE School Bus Safety Ads & Photo Library
Hostage Takeover, bus fire and special effects photos now available Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.
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Edited by - JK on 09/21/2006 11:02:24 PM |
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NY - Student 5 left on school bus, driver fired
