| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Worst_Student
New Member
USA
4 Posts |
 Posted - 02/17/2006 : 12:50:02 PM
|
Bad Rep Costs First Student a Contract
February 17, 2006
School officials in Riverside, Calif., decided last week that First Student’s reputation, employment standards, and negative references were so bad that the district would rather go with a more expensive bidder than risk having Riverside schoolchildren ride First Student buses.
Full story:
http://www.firststudentwatch.org
|
|
|
IC RE 1629
Top Member
United States
5097 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2006 : 2:12:02 PM
|
| Judging by what I read on that site, First Student doesn't look like the best contractor in my mind. |
 |
|
|
80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2006 : 5:02:41 PM
|
Riverside, Calif is defiantly a place of high standards when it comes to evaluating their contractors. They took a look at what the company offers its employees and other factors. More should follow.
also Wasn't First Student also known as Ryder? |
|
|
|
JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2006 : 5:36:25 PM
|
First student nailed some large contracts around the country that it appears they milked to the max, slash and burned, reminding me of the hostile corporate takeovers that hit this country a few decades ago. Laidlaw has similar issues in some areas of the country. And both also have some of the best management teams in the country at specific facilities and sometimes at locations close to the failing ones in some cases. Lends me to think that management primarily determines the success of a facility - public or private. I tend to lean more to the public side. Accountability seems better and what would be profits to corporate enterprises and stockholders remains in the schools as salaries, benefits and other uses. Although an entire state, I believe North Carolina, are all public owned school bus services and would estimate has among the worst managed fleets in the states. It is certainly true that when the bid is too low, or funding is withheld, then false profits and false savings must be produced to maintain the margin - that can mean slash and burn. And to that end comes a greater risk of injured and dead kids, and hostile environments for children and their bus drivers. All bad news for parents, their children and front line employees when the safety of children takes a back seat to profits and unreasonable cost cutting. And all this under the eyes and ears of bureaucracies charged with helping to keep kids safe. A miracle more kids are not deceased when all this crap is going on. Can't find any word other than miracle that fits this anomaly in some parts of our industry. And crap is the nicest word I can find to describe the profiteers that abuse children and their employees - public or private. (jk)
FREE School Bus Safety Ads
Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. Note that the photos area is under revision - The school bus safety ads area is now available. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 02/18/2006 08:38:11 AM |
|
|
|
80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2006 : 02:34:49 AM
|
First Student is popping up everywhere around here. It seems as if they are grabbing all of the Laidlaw contracts. One thing I don't understand is- First Student does not offer any health insurance. Let's see how many First Students are around...within 10 miles of me, I would say about 8 divisions, only one offers health and dental- because they were once Laidlaw which was represented by a Local Teamster Division so they had no choice to offer health benefits. When I was out looking for other possible contractors to work for, I did visit a few First Student companies. The fleets seemed well organized, the management was good, but as soon as I asked if they offered any type of health benefits, I got the run around- then finally got the truth and the answer was "no" so I said- :thanks for your time, I think this yard is too far from where I live:
The FS that has the benefits is all small buses, really didn't want that. In aspects of how a certain division is operated, it has to do with the fleet management. IE: Wal-Mart doesn't offer its employees health insurance (they should be seriously fined for that and shut down IMO) yet, some Wal-Mart’s you go into are nice, others are not; it all depends on the management. So as far as giving ALL First Student operations a bad image, that would be wrong. It depends on who is managing that particular division. I couldn't believe when I asked about the benefits and part of the response was "We can't afford that here", hmmm well I can't afford to work for you (is what I was thinking).
It seems they are taking over Laidlaw branches. As crazy as this sounds, at least Laidlaw offers reliable benefits at highway robbery prices. $150.00 per week for insurance such as Blue Cross Blue Shield is just wrong (and that’s for a single family plan at a non union shop) not sure about union shops. Seriously WRONG but AT LEAST they offer it
Companies can and DO hide their accidents, it is so easy to do. Just don’t go through the insurance company and you’re all set.
|
|
|
|
JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2006 : 09:33:22 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Amtran RE #4
Companies can and DO hide their accidents, it is so easy to do. Just don’t go through the insurance company and you’re all set.
Companies, so inclined, hide a lot of things. What I find disenchanting is that provider-friendly bureaucracies in some states are also inclined to do the same. And it goes on sometimes for years until a disaster happens. Then, as with the case of some employers orchestrations toward their employees, the bureaucracy blames the transportation provider - the same provider they approved all these years having the more serious problems - which then too often turn out those providers mechanics were writing their concerns to the inspection agency well before the disaster happened - those mechanics ignored. Ethical mechanics need effective intervention authority. Many often have that authority at public facilities, especially union shops. I feel my grandkids are safer on better maintained school bus where the mechanics refusal to overlook a mechanical issue are protected by a union. Wish that were not so, but so often transportation providers seem to walk all over their employees and children's safety where some sort of real restraint, such as a union, is not in place. That leaves me stuck with no option than to say, yes, to unions, even in the public workplace. Hate that, because I also know ethical transportation management that treats their employees well and accepts children's safety as a serious matter have no need of a union. They are already a union in their own sense. The rest, may they be blessed with a union that quickly bankrupts their corrupt outfit, since it also remains some states act too irresponsible themselves in dealing with too many of the shabby providers. (jk)
FREE School Bus Safety Ads
Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. Note that the photos area is under revision - The school bus safety ads area is now available. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 02/18/2006 09:40:32 AM |
|
|
|
NewBee Driver
Senior Member
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2006 : 3:19:33 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Amtran RE #4
One thing I don't understand is- First Student does not offer any health insurance.
Where are you getting this info. I have worked for First Student for 3 years and have had full benifits avalible to me the entire time. Like most employers these days they are getting more expencive, But they are availible. Please check your facts in the future. |
Driving Seattle To School - And Loving It!! |
|
|
|
80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2006 : 8:12:42 PM
|
This was not the original post that was here but it is somewhat similar because
I messed up with copying and pasting and lost the original post that belongs here. (That’s what I get for having too many windows opened on my computer )
The 7 FS locations I mentioned were and where I got my info (replying to NewBee) were from these branches:
Northboro, Westboro, Southboro, Westminister, Fitchburg, Worcester, W. Boylston, Massachusetts
If anyone has what I originally posted here, please feel free to re-post. But that is where I did my research. The Worcester Massachusetts FS was branched off from when Laidlaw lost the contract, and split with Durham. FS was awarded Special Ed, but they were unionized-so FS had no choice to offer health benefits at a decent price.
I can't repost word for word what I had here because I can't remember it all but I think it was along these lines.
I pasted my new reply into my old reply without realizing it until the change occurred. 
|
Edited by - 80-RE4 on 02/19/2006 05:57:31 AM |
|
|
|
NewBee Driver
Senior Member
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2006 : 10:01:42 PM
|
I hardly think that a sample of 7 facilities in one state from a national company is a fair assesment to make the claim that there are no health benifits. The fact is, the company that i work for does have the benifits that you claim they lack.
This is an excerpt taken from the First Student web site
First Student also offers competitive wages with an excellent benefits package. Benefits include but are not limited to:
Medical insurance plan for employee and family members
Life insurance
Dental insurance plan
401(k) plan with match
Various savings and retirement packages
Generous company holiday and vacation package
http://www.firststudentinc.com/?P=careers&S=default
Unless you have been in this company and have the first hand knowlege of there operations, i really dont feel you have the right to critisize. First Student is an excelent company, one that i am proud to be part of. |
Driving Seattle To School - And Loving It!! |
|
|
|
JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2006 : 10:19:36 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by NewBee Driver
... Unless you have been in this company and have the first hand knowlege of there operations, i really dont feel you have the right to critisize. First Student is an excelent company, one that i am proud to be part of.
I would understand the reason Amtran RE #4 is not working for your favorite company is simply because the benefits you claim exist in your area either does not exist or are inadequate in his area. What you have in some other area of the country is not relevant. Amtran RE #4 did his homework, more than adequate to determine his needs and what is available from the relevant facilities in his area. In this profession health benefits must be top-notch and include full coverage for the employee, as well as a growing life-insurance policy. The occupation is one of the most unhealthy jobs in America, health risks up there with police officer known health risks. You did know that, did you not? ... or is that something you've not been made privy to as well? (jk)
FREE School Bus Safety Ads
Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. Note that the photos area is under revision - The school bus safety ads area is now available. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 02/19/2006 08:07:08 AM |
|
|
|
william
Top Member
USA
1912 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2006 : 12:57:34 AM
|
JK, you just can't resist taking a shot, can you? I too have never seen or heard of that statistic, so I suppose your company is one of the few that makes their drivers privy to information of this sort. Otherwise I tend to agree that drivers do need top-notch health care, given the cost of medical treatment these days. There are medical and dental plans available for first student employees, however, but there is some contribution by the employee also, which accounts for some drivers not participating.
Throughout the industry, I believe health insurance is a problem for school bus drivers, mostly those drivers working for companies, instead of districts. But I have to wonder how large companies such as WALMART who make billions of dollars in profits each year are able to deny benefits to their employees.
I believe the school bus companies are able to get around granting full benefits for their drivers by categorizing them as part time employees, a very handy subterfuge.
|
William |
|
|
|
80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2006 : 05:16:16 AM
|
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by NewBee Driver
I hardly think that a sample of 7 facilities in one state from a national company is a fair assesment to make the claim that there are no health benifits. The fact is, the company that i work for does have the benifits that you claim they lack.
This is an excerpt taken from the First Student web site
Seven facilities that are in my general area that are within 10 miles of me. The fact is, they lack what I, as a person, require from an employer. This is in Massachusetts, not sure what state you are from NewBee, but I am not about to travel to Toledo, Ohio to work for a First Student that offers what I want. The fact is, they don't offer health and dental benefits that I desire, therefore, I will not be part of their team. As far as other First Student locations, why would I find out about them, they are too far from me.
quote:
Originally posted by Worst_Student
Bad Rep Costs First Student a Contract
February 17, 2006
School officials in Riverside, Calif., decided last week that First Student’s reputation, employment standards, and negative references were so bad that the district would rather go with a more expensive bidder..
Even Riverside, CA agrees
quote:
Originally posted by william
JK, you just can't resist taking a shot, can you? I too have never seen or heard of that statistic, so I suppose your company is one of .....
What was so bad about what JK posted, I thought he was right on the dot.
quote:
Originally posted by JK
quote:
Originally posted by NewBee Driver
... Unless you have been in this company and have the first hand knowlege of there operations, i really dont feel you have the right to critisize. First Student is an excelent company, one that i am proud to be part of.
I would understand the reason Amtran RE #4 is not working for your favorite company is simply because the benefits you claim exist in your area either does not exist or are inadequate in his area. What you have in some other area of the country is not relevant. Amtran RE #4 did his homework, more than adequate to determine his needs and what is available from the relevant facilities in his area. In this profession health benefits must be top-notch and include full coverage for the employee, as well as a growing life-insurance policy. The occupation is one of the most unhealthy jobs in America, health risks up there with known police officer health risks.
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Amtran RE #4
In aspects of how a certain division is operated, it has to do with the fleet management. IE: Wal-Mart doesn't offer its employees health insurance (they should be seriously fined for that and shut down IMO) yet, some Wal-Mart’s you go into are nice, others are not; it all depends on the management. So as far as giving ALL First Student operations a bad image, that would be wrong. It depends on who is managing that particular division. I couldn't believe when I asked about the benefits and part of the response was "We can't afford that here", hmmm well I can't afford to work for you (is what I was thinking).
It seems they are taking over Laidlaw branches. As crazy as this sounds, at least Laidlaw offers reliable benefits at highway robbery prices. $150.00 per week for insurance such as Blue Cross Blue Shield is just wrong (and that’s for a single family plan at a non union shop) not sure about union shops.
Simply put, I won't work for a company who won't meet my needs. Why should I? The 7 facilities I did research on were the closest to where I live. I'm not saying Laidlaw is anything special either, they charge almost $150- PER WEEK PER PAY PERIOD for reliable health insurance (shame)
It doesn't just apply to First Student, Laidlaw is the same. I read an article and wish I would have saved it, about how Laidlaw International, who owns Laidlaw, who owns Laidlaw Educational,etc. -that their stocks are rising, how well to do the company is now, and they boast about that, yet what they hide is the fact that they can't offer their employee's competitive wages and a decent benefit package. Maybe someone here can try to dig that information up; I think it was listed in Forbes. COM or CNN.COM or the like. Here is something I found about Laidlaw- it's Adobe format so it may take a while to open, just showing a glimpse at Laidlaw International (AKA Laidlaw, AKA Laidlaw Educational Services) http://library.corporate-ir.net/library/14/145/145371/items/177147/10k05.pdf
Another thing, websites often are very deceiving. Did you all know that Starbucks retains by offering its employees great dental and health insurance if you work 20 hours per week? And that's for serving coffee, what about the ones who deliver the nation's future?
From http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos242.htm (from the US DEPT. OF LABOR) What troubles me is this: (in red)- "many" should be changed to "hardly any, but some"
"The benefits bus drivers receive from their employers vary greatly. Most intercity and local-transit bus drivers receive paid health and life insurance, sick leave, vacation leave, and free bus rides on any of the regular routes of their line or system. School bus drivers receive sick leave, and many are covered by health and life insurance and pension plans. Because they generally do not work when school is not in session, they do not get vacation leave." |
Edited by - 80-RE4 on 02/19/2006 05:55:21 AM |
|
|
|
80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2006 : 05:43:59 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by NewBee Driver
I hardly think that a sample of 7 facilities in one state from a national company is a fair assesment to make the claim that there are no health benifits. The fact is, the company that i work for does have the benifits that you claim they lack.
This is an excerpt taken from the First Student web site
First Student also offers competitive wages with an excellent benefits package. Benefits include but are not limited to:
Medical insurance plan for employee and family members
Life insurance
Dental insurance plan
401(k) plan with match
Various savings and retirement packages
Generous company holiday and vacation package
http://www.firststudentinc.com/?P=careers&S=default
Unless you have been in this company and have the first hand knowlege of there operations, i really dont feel you have the right to critisize. First Student is an excelent company, one that i am proud to be part of.
maybe where you are from newbee, I did check the FS website, and it is very deceiving- The fact is THEY don't offer the benefit packages to SCHOOL BUS DRIVERS in the areas around here, plain and simple. They are begging for drivers (FS) around here, FS, wake up and smell the roses. Who cares what their website says, maybe it's for positions posted below.
REPAIR SHOP MANAGERS
AND/OR
ASSISTANT SHOP MANAGERS
First Student, a division of FirstGroup America, is seeking top-notch Repair Shop Managers and/or Assistant Shop Managers on 1st and 2nd shifts for bus maintenance garages in the Boston, MA area.
First Student, Inc. serves more than 500 school systems of all types and sizes across North America. First Student’s fleet of 20,000 school buses is responsible for safely transporting more than 1.8 million students to and from school each day. First Student helps school districts maintain the right balance with other critical educational priorities by ensuring that the student transportation system runs safely, smoothly and efficiently.
Responsibilities include:
Schedule and oversee routine school bus maintenance
Schedule and maintain PM program
Ensure buses are kept in safe, reliable operating condition
Maintain proper work records
Qualifications include:
Automotive maintenance experience, preferably with diesels, trucks or buses
CDL or ability to obtain
Familiarity with diagnostic equipment, electrical systems, OSHA regs.
Experience working in a union shop helpful
Top pay and excellent benefits package for the right candidate. There is no relocation package for these positions.
Interested? Please apply on-line or fax resume to:
*********************************
Note: I'm not attacking First Student in general, Newbee, I bet the location where you work is a good one, you are lucky. |
Edited by - 80-RE4 on 02/19/2006 06:02:24 AM |
|
|
|
JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2006 : 11:24:28 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by william
JK, you just can't resist taking a shot, can you?
Yes, you're right, of course. And your history suggests you can't resist taking a personalized shot directed at me, as well as providing an abundance of ammo I use cautiously because of the volatility in that generosity.
I would consider it difficult for you to successfully manage my tenacity at your facility. That would require a level of skill some have and some don't. But your personality is fairly easy to manage where the one in control has patience and appreciates entrepreneurial thinking. I believe you have some potential in the area of entrepreneurial thinking, a bit harsh sometimes but workable with time. That's nothing more than my personalized opinion, of course. A simple somewhat helpful test is available by clicking here: A QUIZ: The Entrepreneurial Spirit
I have seen, many times, an abundance of entrepreneurial potential in many school bus drivers from all around this great country, a decent and worthwhile lot I've had the honor to meet and communicate with. Yet, some are so down on themselves, hiding it with cheer-masking and false confidence, feeling trapped, and with all the help generously provided from some management styles to keep them that way. I find it sad so many may not ever discover their true value to themselves, their families and their community. The true Captains of their school buses, worthty of that post and most worthy to be heard and heeded.
I have reason to believe you and others haven't heard many of the statistics and quotes presented in my posts. When a school bus driver, trainer, supervisor, principal, school board member or bureaucrat focus only what they get from themselves, and what comes from their industry and too often only from the side of an issue they agree with, the result is limited knowledge. Some do know the issue well enough to know they are making a decision to deceive and control others rather than enlighten. Label that politics for now.
The data, concerning school bus driver stressors to good health, appears data you admit to not having awareness, again is a result of this type of information for whatever reason is often limited or nonexistent discussion in our industry.
Taboo stuff better not discussed - don't want to frighten the troops - dirty laundry the good manager keeps in the closet and impresses or threatens employees to do the same.
The functional employer keeps the laundry clean - nothing dirty is nothing dirty to report kind of thinking.
The cost to cover school bus driver health risks with full medical and life insurance benefits is, well, not something perceived that would increase profits in this industry. The bid might have to be a little higher, the shortcutting and cost cutting might have to go a little less deep. Can't have that - better school bus drivers, considered by some to be the ilk and potential ilk in this industry anyway, are better kept unaware, which in-turn will help keep them away from tending toward the criminal mindset, such as jumping ship.
Unfortunately, your attempted guess, placed in a question format to cover your deception, that my community's school bus transportation provider, "is one of the few that makes their drivers privy to information of this sort," is not the case with my employer as well.
The school bus driver/police officer health risk connection came from an OHSA/Workers' Comp. seminar my Mrs. attended, paid for by her employer, which is involved in the medical profession. These experts in their profession seem less fearful of what the school bus industry prefers heard or not heard. Serves to demonstrate that dirty laundry is sometimes best aired outside the target industry's controls.
For me, and for sure, under no permanent circumstance would I work for any employer in any field without decent medical benefits, not even for myself. I'm spoiled that way. And also because there are simply too many employers, oddly most are union enhanced, that provide good benefits, including at some Wal-Mart stores. Fancy that.
Consider the character of any employer that fails to compensate a job with serious health risks along side with equivalent health benefits. School bus drivers and potential hires must consider real and excellent medical coverage to be a must when working as a school bus driver in this industry. Bids and/or profits or cost-cutting must be adjusted to cover that necessity.
A properly trained, skilled and experienced professional school bus driver (ten or so years experience) I believe is a bargain anywhere in this country at around $21.00 per hour and with a minimum five or six hour per work day guarantee -- plus good benefits.
That works out at 5hpd to maybe $18-$20,000 per 9 month school year, plus benefits (approx., and excluding non-paid school breaks) or around $25,000 working year round at 5hpd. This number is still below what some school districts pay their school bus drivers and well below the U.S. Census median earnings for men and women (from 15 years of age on) and who worked full-time, year-round.
U.S. Census real median earnings for men rose from $36,126 to $36,476 between 1998 and 1999 and earnings of women working full-time, year-round remained statistically unchanged at $26,324. Female households, no husband present was $26,164 while males earned $41,838. Single Females earned $20,000 while single males made $31,000. Real median household income rose significantly in 14 states and the District of Columbia and did not decline in any state.
Some school bus transportation providers would bulk at paying their experienced bus drivers $21ph or even anything near that pay scale -- My God! All we want is a body to drive the stupid bus! (preferably female so we can justify lower wages).
Yet, pay does not seem to be the reason so many school bus drivers quit. But not in this case:
It was one thing when Don Schmidt, a school bus driver [for Wittenberg-Birnamwood School District in Wisconsin], got a paycheck for $0.00, after deductions, but when he was told he probably would have to pay the district $20 to $30 every pay period to work there in the future, "That was the real kick in the teeth," he said. "It’s a crime, really." In some ways, Schmidt was in a unique position, but in many ways he wasn't’t. - Wisconsin Education Association Council Report, November 30, 2001
How is it the professional school bus driver is so financially maltreated in this profession, especially when the skills required to perform responsibly in this unique profession are so demanding on the bus driver's health?
And how is it that abusive treatment is imposed on school bus drivers in so many other areas of this profession? Amazes my mind that a free and intelligent people would so silently tolerate such persistent abuse of the school bus drivers time and resources so abundantly obvious in this profession. Nationwide awareness is one key to ending this silence.
Indeed, school bus drivers do make mistakes - they are human after all, are they not? One of those mistakes are those bus drivers that continue to work for an abusive employer, one that made the decision to take every obscene advantage to milk their school bus drivers of their resources. And that is not limited to just pay and benefits.
Say this with me:
There is no school bus driver shortage! Properly train, effective support and pay that retains!
There are excellent transportation providers out there that made the decision they will not hurt their help, that decent pay and decent medical benefits are necessary costs of doing business. Do the research until finding such an employer and make the move. Leave the state or find another profession if that's what it takes to be treated decently. You're not only helping yourself, your family, and your fellows, but you are sending a clear message demonstrating intolerance toward employers that made the decision to abuse you and your fellows. And your family where relevant.
Do the right thing for those things most important to you - Your Family (or future family) and Your Own Good Health. Take care of these things first - then take good care of other families kids by becoming a knowledgeable and dedicated professional in this unique profession. (jk)
Click Here to find out The #1 reason school bus drivers quit
FREE School Bus Safety Ads
Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. Note that the photos area is under revision - The school bus safety ads area is now available. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.
|
Edited by - JK on 02/20/2006 11:22:55 AM |
|
|
|
william
Top Member
USA
1912 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2006 : 12:42:17 PM
|
My point was, JK, that your overbearing and pompous attitude was uncalled for. I would ask how many forum members was aware of that statistic you quoted. I and many others are aware of a lot of the things you put in your posts, and if not, I'm sure they, as well as I, appreciate the information. That information will be very informative in future training situations, and I don't understand why anyone would be afraid to impart imformation of this sort, do you?
Not able to manage your tenacity? I am a career military man and I dare say you have any idea what tenacity really is. What you call tenacity is probably nothing more than rabble-rousing and complaining about company policies / management.
Not knowing you personally, as well as you obviously know me, mostly I see you as a very knowledgable person who, although pretending to abhor politics, your gift of spin, bullspit, deception and twisting what is said here, would do Richard Nixon proud, not to mention Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity.
You always mention ammo, but I have already told you what I consider your ammo to be. Having served in the ordnance field, I know that damp and otherwise faulty ammunition, is nothing more than what we in the military call duds.
Twist and spin as is your proclivity, that link you included on WAL-MART points out that there are still a sizable number of it's employees without health care. I don't know how many unionized employees they have at WAL-MART, but I do know that when we were unionized, it didn't make one bit of difference as far as benefits went. That was the main reason the drivers de-certified at the very first opportunity to do so.
That story about Don Schmidt was mind-boggling. I just can't comprehend a school district not paying a driver anything, and then charging $30.00 per pay period to work there. What about the other drivers there? Is there more to this story than is being told? This doesn't make sense. |
William |
|
|
|
JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2006 : 1:29:13 PM
|
What I can tell you is that my employer pays me a decent salary, as well as provides excellent medical benefits, free of any cost to me, in my case. I can also say that the union played a critical part in first establishing that reality and in maintaining that reality throughout the years.
It serves no real point to say the union at your facility was not worthwhile. We've had such unions and booted them out the door, but knowing the risks of not having a union, continued looking until finding one that better represented our interests.
How many forum members was aware of that statistic I quoted would depend on how many have been reading my posts or various commentaries here and there. Regardless, and Yes, I agree, it is probably true that you don't understand why anyone would be afraid to impart imformation of this sort.
What reason do you think such information was unknown to you and so many others? And potential hearing loss? Workplace clinical depression? Serious heart problems? Injured fingers when pulling the "Parking Brake" at every bus stop? - an activity not intended for that purpose by the Bendix people. And the device to help ease the risk of injury when setting the parking brake so often? How many know about that?
You do know about the handrail problem? The fuel tank guard necessity? Brake failure issues? The Carpenter bus roof problem, and other important alerts that have come along, do you not?
As far as knowing you? That, of course, we already agree is nothing more than my personalized opinion.
The ammo that you keep saying that I keep saying is so generously provided are not duds, they're sleepers. It is fine ammo, best quality, but gaseous and touchy stuff, deserving of careful handling. I learned about carefulness with some very big ammo when in my younger years and when working on guidance and radar systems at nuclear missile sites. I suppose had I made the wrong mistake working in those situations, I'd been fired in a whole new way. My medical and life insurance was top notch, just to mention.
My tenacity is probably nothing more than rabble-rousing and complaining about company policies / management? Yet knowledgeable, and appreciated, very informative for use in future training situations? And to place my skills along side those of Richard Nixon, and not to mention Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity?
Wow! When should I start my lecture circuit and start making the big bucks? My opening theme - what do you think of the "I,robot" movie theme? How bout this for an opening from the announcer? The only talk show host so ugly his face alone makes ultra-liberals vomit and flee the room.
Have a nice day. 
FREE School Bus Safety Ads
Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. Note that the photos area is under revision - The school bus safety ads area is now available. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 02/20/2006 11:01:04 AM |
|
|
|
DanLJ
Advanced Member
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2006 : 3:54:25 PM
|
quote:
The school bus driver/police officer health risk connection came from an OHSA/Workers' Comp. seminar my Mrs. attended, paid for by her employer, which is involved in the medical profession. These experts in their profession seem less fearful of what the school bus industry prefers heard or not heard. Serves to demonstrate that dirty laundry is sometimes best aired outside the target industry's controls.
Rates of incidence are raw statistics, serving to quantify injuries and illnesses of all types of work on the same basis for purposes of comparison - just as you have done.
What those statistics do not tell us is the causal and contributing factors in those injuries and illnesses. What data do you have available for comparison in areas as overall general health, demographics such as age and gender, and socio-economic status?
My question is not intended to dispute the rates of incidence, I am familar with the process. My question is intended though to discern causal factors (such as improper training, inadequate PPE, inadequate safety procedures, repetitious acts, inherent risks,etc.) and then to further ascertain and establish the overall general health and physical condition of those in our industry compared to those in other industries.
In short, it does little good to know that we have a high rate of incidence if we cannot take the appropriate actions to lower the rate of incidence. |
Edited by - DanLJ on 02/19/2006 7:13:06 PM |
|
|
|
JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2006 : 7:18:47 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by DanLJ
[quote]... What those statistics do not tell us is the causal and contributing factors in those injuries and illnesses. What data do you have available for comparison in areas as overall general health, demographics such as age and gender, and socio-economic status?
...
In short, it does little good to know that we have a high rate of incidence if we cannot take the appropriate actions to lower the rate of incidence.
For information as deep as what you proposed to me in your post, would seem to use my time to complete your thought, so that somehow then you would be satisfied with the data and institute a change of some sort.
What would stop managers from going to key resources that are paid to provide detailed information? Your insurance carrier, for example. Your OSHA and Workers' Comp. resources. And your risk management team.
As far as school bus driver healthy workplace issues, there are constants that can be addressed and eased where management interest is sufficient. Reducing the hostile environment on school buses, empowering drivers with more training and the authority to manage hostile and defiant students, and support systems that work. A survey of the facility's school bus drivers would likely report back strong interest in these areas.
Where the environment is mistrustful between management and employees, data can be collected by an outside firm, independent of the employer. That happened in our community. Oddly, the administration and most of the school board members rejected the findings - they seemed offended. It took years to implement some of the changes and I believe other needed changes were simply gave up on.
Often enough, it would seem, some employers administrations promote change to their employees and parents with abundant enthusiasm, but have great difficulty changing themselves when called upon to do so.
In our situation school board members were recalled mutable times and superintendents replaced. I've been under the authority of more transportation directors with one employer, than the total number of supervisors from most of my previous employers over the years.
Rather bazaar when you give such happenings due consideration, but not necessarily unexpected. (jk)
"U.S. firms generally spend much less on training and education for employees than their competitors in Japan, Germany, Sweden, and other advanced countries. Most of what U.S. corporations spend goes for management training." --Publications Research, Kent State University
Click Here to find out The #1 reason school bus drivers quit
FREE School Bus Safety Ads
Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. Note that the photos area is under revision - The school bus safety ads area is now available. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 02/19/2006 7:55:30 PM |
|
|
|
DanLJ
Advanced Member
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2006 : 7:45:43 PM
|
quote:
For information as deep as what you proposed to me in your post, would seem to use my time to complete your thought, so that somehow then you would be satisfied with the data and institute a change of some sort.
Well JK, you are the one who brought up the injury/illness numbers. You either have no interest in the causual factors because they don't support your thesis or you simply latched on to a statistic without completely understanding the basis of the statistic. Personally I would bet on the former as you have certainly demonstrated that you have no lack of understanding.
The fact of the matter is that there are vast differences in the demographics of the two groups involved including all of those factors I listed. For purposes of OSHA it is helpful to quantify the incidence rate on an employee basis - but that really is akin to comparing apples and oranges.
A better comparison would be to compare people in similar occupations, such as truck drivers or other transportation occupations. Even then though we run into some rather disparate demographics. Generally speaking our ranks are top-heavy with older, over-weight people who are not in the prime of their life. Nor do the socio-economic factors compare. I would suggest that you already know that, but it is not supportive of your position.
quote:
What would stop managers from going to key resources that are paid to provide detailed information? Your insurance carrier, for example. Your OSHA and Workers' Comp. resources. And your risk management team.
Nothing, absolutely nothing would stop anyone from accomplishing what you suggest. Though an employer does run a risk of allegations of discrimination if those factors were used in making a hiring decision. Of course I suspect that is something that you already know.
I would suggest that if you choose to use data to support your positions that you should be willing to discuss all aspects of your data, not just the perspective that supports your position while ignoring the meat of the subject - causual factors and how to eliminate or modify those factors - which should be our true goal.
You and I both know that more detailed data is available, give us a breakdown of the types of injuries and illnesses as well as the causual factors - for both groups that you have chosen to cite - and let people see a clearer picture. After all, it is your argument to complete and substantiate.
|
|
|
|
JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2006 : 10:23:30 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by DanLJ
...Well JK, you are the one who brought up the injury/illness numbers. You either have no interest in the causual factors because they don't support your thesis or you simply latched on to a statistic without completely understanding the basis of the statistic. Personally I would bet on the former as you have certainly demonstrated that you have no lack of understanding.
Nice try. I've brought something I believe might be of value to you and others. You have the result. Do your own research or hire someone to collect the additional details you want.
Your vast differences in the demographics, and blah-blah, sound well educated in these matters. And some do want to reverse study a completed study, and then take a deeper look - part by part - and then plan it and plan it before making a change, apparently to insure no mistakes.
Myself, I'm satisfied with the expert medical conclusion on this mater. Regardless, I would look forward to a new reversed study report from you, based on your perspective. Might be useful.
With your expertise, I would expect that you should have no problem figuring out what results from a simple survey of your school bus drivers can be promptly analyzed and without excuses for deep, intellectualized data and funding from Congress.
Small business owners do that successfully all the time. You're as smart as they are I would suggest.
I worked with bureaucratized (or instatution enhanced) reasoning in some parts of the corporate world - so many didn't last long. The ones that made it spent more time intuitively anticipating "the street," as it was often called, asking simple questions from end users, tasting it and making a decision, rather than plan after plan for a plan to finish a plan to fulfill some study detailed to the umpteenth degree in order to be sure of some change without a mistake. There was some of that going on in the bigger departments with the budget to carry that approach along. It did seem useful on occasion. Certainly kept the newbies busy. However, seemed more often than not, a simple part was missed - unanticipated - that then required a repeat of the above.
When I worked for an electronics products firm, it was interesting the process involved to program a chip so the end user understood the functions. And over and over the program was changed, and years later the end-user still didn't understand all the functions. Sometimes it hurt sales to the point the item had to be sold under another name and look with still another attempt to program the chip so the end-user could understand and use all the functions correctly.
It was eventually realized that kids had a natural knack toward simplifying the multiple processes involved with these gadgets. Their expertize eventually helped produce manuals and chip functions that adults could also understand. But voice assistance - that was the ticket that made complicated devices easy to use.
Evergreen College (Washington State) did a study to help identify the ability of people to recognize what they liked and didn't like. Oil paintings and other fine art was used to sample the pro's preferences v/s the street's preferences in fine art. Professional judges, people usually paid high fees, critiqued the fine art and wrote down their praises and criticisms using their fashion of communicating with each other and the public. Then, separately, adults off the street in the community were invited in to give their praises and criticisms. Oddly, and although the street praises and criticism lacked the eloquence of the pros, they were dead on in agreement with what the pros had decided.
Note: Don't ask. I'm not going to reverse study these completed studies for you either, but feel free to do so yourself.
Funny, how often what seems a complicated issue, seemingly requiring depth of institution, could be resolved rather quickly by simply asking the front-line employees and learning to correctly analyze their street-smart concerns and ideas.
Sometimes you have to listen to your own on the front-line with more interest before an answer that works becomes apparent.
And when that doesn't work for me, I fine no shame in simply asking an experienced professional that I trust, one that supports a similar standard of ethics, and when understood within the context given, simply then following his or her directions with little or no modification.
There are several here in this forum that meet that criteria. Most of those only post when they feel it will be of some help. I have not seen their posts in this thread or in a few others as well.
My suspicion would be that these do not waste their time on me or you or on some thread when it seems fruitless to do so. Wise bunch, in my opinion. We could learn from those, I would think?
Have a nice day. (jk)
A QUIZ: The Entrepreneurial Spirit
Click Here to find out The #1 reason school bus drivers quit
FREE School Bus Safety Ads
Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. Note that the photos area is under revision - The school bus safety ads area is now available. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 02/19/2006 10:49:48 PM |
|
|
|
DanLJ
Advanced Member
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2006 : 11:56:25 PM
|
quote:
Your vast differences in the demographics, and blah-blah, sound well educated in these matters. And some do want to reverse study a completed study, and then take a deeper look - part by part - and then plan it and plan it before making a change, apparently to insure no mistakes.
It's not a reverse study JK, it's called a COMPLETE study. Even OSHA would agree with that, I sincerely regret that you don't realize that the missing detail is what makes the report meaningful.
Without the detail somebody, like yourself, can simply throw numbers out there and make them "say" whatever you want them to say. In your case you suggest that it is the fault of the proverbial "dysfunctional" employer - as you do on every subject. This thread has simply added occupational illnesses/injuries to your long list of alleged management transgressions against the "fellows".
It occurs to me that your unwavering blind allegiance to the "fellows" is not unlike politics in America these days. Politicians and pundits from both sides of the aisle attack the other with a zeal and blind allegiance to their cause that defies the imagination. James Carville and Rush Limbaugh; Pat Robertson and Howard Dean; Sean Hannity and Al Sharpton - all ridiculously and blindly faithful to their cause despite logic and reason. It's political rhetoric designed to inflame the passions of one group or another.
I see you in the same role within our industry. Despite logic and reason you just keep hammering away with the same old song and dance, adapted for the current topic of the day. Throwing mud in the hope that some of it will stick, just like the political figures and pundits.
Fortunately most in our industry, rank and file as well as management, are not that blind and can see the fallacy in most of your arguments when your solution is always the same, and the fault is always attributed to just one party.
As you have intimated before, neither your words or mine have any supremacy here - they are but expressions of our opinions. Let our fellow forum members take what they will from both of our opinions, or take nothing at all, in the end let us pray that we have a safer, more effective and responsive industry transporting our children.
|
Edited by - DanLJ on 02/20/2006 12:03:39 AM |
|
|
|
william
Top Member
USA
1912 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2006 : 07:01:05 AM
|
| Amtran, For your information, I too think most of what JK said in his thread of 2/18/06, was right on target. It was his last sentence I was referring to. |
William |
|
|
|
JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2006 : 10:46:06 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by DanLJ
[quote] ... It's not a reverse study JK, it's called a COMPLETE study. Even OSHA would agree with that, I sincerely regret that you don't realize that the missing detail is what makes the report meaningful.
Without the detail somebody, like yourself, can simply throw numbers out there and make them "say" whatever you want them to say. ...
What I said, for the additional details you're looking for, go ahead and use your own available agency resources, not mine. Research the study details yourself or hire someone to do that for you. And, certainly, someone, such as your medical insurance carrier, would be glad to help you out. They are paid to do that.
I'm satisfied with the medical study conclusions for my needs, and have made the decision, at this point, not to waste time on some premise that would then somehow bring agreement from you.
It's simply that your attempted maneuver to place the burden of proof on me is rejected.
It would be foolish on my part to believe that accepting the burden of proof, to then do the brain-work for you, would then somehow prove acceptance of that proof from you or anyone else.
"Innocent until proving guilty," is an ethic in support of various industry expert claims - such as school buses are upto 2,000 times safer than other modes of transportation - was acceptable to me until doing the research myself. The burden was on me, not necessarily the industry or government, to show that claim was probably false.
Regardless, I could agree that simply assuming that a study's conclusions are true may not be sufficient "evidence" that then the conclusions are actually true. The ACLU is infamous for their false stats and false facts.
That should also be abundantly obvious when industry and government experts toss numbers at the press without the details, such as claiming school buses are upto 2,000 times safer than other modes of transportation. My first project in this occupation was to confirm that number.
When taken apart that claim can be proved false. Depending on the criteria school buses have been shown to be no safer, somewhat safer (3 to 4 times safer), and much safer (by 50-200 times). The evidence to support these alternative claims was to include more of the common activities involving school buses. All claims in this matter could be considered accurate within their own rules, but 2,000 times safer is probably false.
Some states do not allow additional young passengers with a teenage driver for a period of time, enforcing the teenager first gain some experience behind the wheel. The reason is studies claim driver distraction escalates with each additional passenger in the car with that teen driver.
Bus drivers can have upto 72 or more kids riding behind them and acting up while the bus driver is trying to drive the school bus. Not so surprising a result based on studies: School bus driver distraction is a major contributor to bus crashes. A high percentage, (some claim ninety percent) of the school bus crashes the bus driver caused, are due to bus driver distraction because of student misbehavior on the school bus. One could say that crashing the school bus is not a healthy thing to do, and do a study in support of that.
It goes on and on - Violence on the school buses increased by 35 percent between the years 2003 and 2004, according to a national survey of school security officers.
Studies haven't changed the attitude of management at some schools, but does help support those employers and schools that maintain safe, hostile-free school buses all year long. They can point to that study and report that increase in violence is not the case on their school buses. The rest can call for details or another study. And those management teams and schools that choose to do so can report, "We failed." And some can make the decision to deceive the community - including intimidating their bus drivers to keep that dirty laundry in the closet.
The health issues connected to stressful workplaces have been studied to death. The reality that stress affects school bus driver health adversely should be no surprise, in my opinion, including increased absenteeism, attrition, and contributing to excessive weight gain and weight loss in school bus drivers. The high level of claimed stressors is somewhat a surprise, I admit. I also would not have expected the level equivalent to police officers occupational stress levels, but accept the study and the source as accurate for now.
Survey or no survey, study or no study, considerable data can be available to management by simply listening to the school bus drivers and accurately discerning their concerns and ideas.
Yet, the question remains: When are schools and transportation providers, where the issue exists, going to take responsibility for the hostile environments and hostile workplaces rampaging on too many of our nation's school buses? To step up to the plate and admit, "We failed." And then finally act responsibly toward providing school bus driver support that actually works?
After another study?
Have a nice day. (jk)
Click Here to find out The #1 reason school bus drivers quit
FREE School Bus Safety Ads
Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. Note that the photos area is under revision - The school bus safety ads area is now available. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 02/20/2006 2:35:40 PM |
|
|
|
DanLJ
Advanced Member
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2006 : 3:12:06 PM
|
JK - This last post of yours was made at "10:46:06", the first edit that I noticed was at "11:08:08" followed by another edit at "11:53:04"; yet another at "11:59:31" then another at "2:30:03" and this last one at 2:35:40". Counting the original post, that's six (6) versions of the same post in less than four hours.
Do let us know when you get to the final "edited" version of this last post so somebody, if so inclined, can respond to the final edited version.
Thanks!
|
|
|
|
DanLJ
Advanced Member
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2006 : 3:17:55 PM
|
Oops, make that seven versions not six.
Gotta love that edit button! Corrected spelling error. |
Edited by - DanLJ on 02/20/2006 3:19:08 PM |
|
|
|
JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2006 : 4:05:03 PM
|
Simple corrections and minor additions. Your jabs and personalizing criticisms are boring and distracting - it must work for you at your place of employment. One method to satisfy your concern is ['is' is an edited addition] perhaps waiting to respond until next week or next month. Even next year is o-k with me. I'm can be patient with your sort of concerns. Take your time and for your own sake, beware of responding until confident all editing is finished. In your case, I can wait two years if that works for you. Hope this helps. Have a nice day, and don't [corrected don,t to don't] forget to read the post you attempted to redirect from before making ['a' corrected to 'the'] the silly post. [this last sentence is a minor addition] Although a silly post now and then can still be fun I suppose. (jk)
FREE School Bus Safety Ads
Free to use at websites, in newsletters, memos, the local press, letters to parents and more. Note that the photos area is under revision - The school bus safety ads area is now available. This is a very popular Website. If you can't get in bookmark the page and try again later.
There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains. |
Edited by - JK on 02/20/2006 4:34:37 PM |
|
|
|
DanLJ
Advanced Member
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2006 : 4:54:47 PM
|
JK - I sincerely do wish that I could make an ally of you - you are well versed, very knowledgeable, determined, dedicated to children's safety and obviously have the time and expertise to follow through on all of these attributes.
The ONLY, and I stress ONLY, thing that I take issue with in general is your perspective. The continuous redirection of responsibility and accountability away from individuals to management. While it may well be true in some cases, even many cases, that management is complicit in these that go awry - that certainly is not the case 100% of the time and maybe not even the majority of the time - though that is a matter to be determined in each case.
Though it may not seem so at times, I really do appreciate your efforts towards children's safety and self-gained knowledge in pursuit of making our industry safer, more functional and more appreciative of our single most important partner in our job - the drivers.
Hopefully having said the above, the below comments relative to your last post will be received just a tad better than before.
quote:
I'm satisfied with the medical study conclusions for my needs, and have made the decision, at this point, not to waste time on some premise that would then somehow bring agreement from you.
We both know that OSHA reporting is not a "medical study". Indeed, it is not a study at all, for it to be so there would be an attempt to identify causual factors and recommendations to mitigate those so identified. There would also be an attempt, in comparison, to identify any significant variations in the demographics and socio-economic status of any two groups being compared. That is a general statement and not a request for you to do any research to support my argument - which is merely that you provide incomplete data when citing statistics.
quote:
Regardless, I could agree that simply assuming that a study's conclusions are true may not be sufficient "evidence" that then the conclusions are actually true. The ACLU is infamous for their false stats and false facts.
This is exactly what I try to explain above.
quote:
When are schools and transportation providers, where the issue exists, going to take responsibility for the hostile environments and hostile workplaces rampaging on too many of our nation's school buses?
In this passage you allude to what myself and others have taken issue with - "where the issue exists" directly implies that the issue does not exist everywhere. As such blanket dispensation for a person who does not do their job should not be given because the employer is "dysfunctional" - particularly so when detailed information for that site and the circumstances of a given incident are not available.
I bid you a good evening and wish you the best. I do believe that, in the end, we have almost identical end goals. |
|
|
|
80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2006 : 7:45:30 PM
|
| I wonder why the person Worst Student just came and dropped his or her story and didn't bother to respond. Worst Student, don't be shy! |
Edited by - 80-RE4 on 02/20/2006 7:46:22 PM |
|
|
|
william
Top Member
USA
1912 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2006 : 10:28:40 PM
|
You'll notice that Worst Student's information was taken from a union propaganda site that may have an agenda against FIRST STUDENT. I doubt seriously if Worst Student has independent knowledge of the business of the Riverside School District. But, it is not at all uncommon that the lower bid is passed over in favor of a higher bid.
|
William |
Edited by - william on 02/22/2006 9:35:19 PM |
|
|
|
Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2006 : 07:17:56 AM
|
That Worst Student site is pretty pathetic, there really isn't a lot of information on there to change most people's mind on First Student.
Unions are just unhappy since the whole company isn't unionized... |
|
|
|
|
Worst_Student
New Member
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 3:20:49 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by william
You'll notice that Worst Student's information was taken from a union propaganda site that may have an agenda against FIRST STUDENT. I doubt seriously if Worst Student has independent knowledge of the business of the Riverside School District. But, it is not at all uncommon that the lower bid is passed over in favor of a higher bid.
You are attacking the messenger in an attempt to discredit the message. A useful rhetorical device, but a diversion nonetheless. In doing so, you do not address the assertions you are attempting to discredit. That being that First Student lost a $34 mil plus contract opportunity in CA b/c of its poor reputation and inferior wages/benefits.
Don't believe me or FirstStudentWatch.org? Read the memo from Riverside Deputy Superintendent Mike Fine that is excerpted and linked to from that story at:
http://www.FirstStudentWatch.org
In his memo to the Board of Education, Fine says that First Student's references were negative. He also says that the Riverside County Office of Education, where First runs some buses, "had nothing positive to say about First Student." He recommends not awarding the contract to First Student because of their poor reputation and their inferior wage/benefit schedule.
That's not a union saying that -- that's one of the top officials in the Riverside school district saying that. And Mr. Fine certainly has independent knowledge of the business of the Riverside School District.
Want more independent knowledge? Read the Riverside Press-Enterprise story about this: http://www.pe.com/localnews/riverside/stories/PE_News_Local_R_rbuses09.c8674eb.html
Yes, low bidders are sometimes passed over for higher bids. In states that allow that in their public contracting, and where contracting entities weigh things such as reputation and service quality against price and decide to pay a little more to get better quality.
But how many times do you know WHY the low bidder was passed over? In this case, as Fine explained to the Press-Enterprise, it was b/c district staff weighed reputation (which reflects service record and quality) more than cost. First scored poorly with Riverside on the former. First also lost pts w/Riverside for its relatively inferior wages & benefits. Again, this is Mike Fine -- the Deputy supe for Riverside Unified School District -- saying all of this.
Can you address what Mr. Fine says about First Student's reputation and record? |
|
|
|
PCW
Senior Member
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 4:59:36 PM
|
As a previous First Student Inc employee, I can vouch for my location only. I do agree with the ideals that your location is only as good as the people who run it. Tustin Unified School District originally contracted with what was formerly knows as Ryder Student Transportation. First Group, a UK based company bought out the school bus division of Ryder which was then dubbed First Student Inc. Since that transition most of the managers at the Tustin location were moved around and dispursed over several other locations that were aquired after First took over. Certain locations suffered, others thrived.
Last year, First Student was awarded the transportation contract from The Riverside County Office of Education, not to be mistaken with Riverside Unified School District. These are two separate agencies. Based on the article, it's clear that First Student has been struggling with providing, at the very least, satisfactory service. Now I know that not all First Student locations have these issues. Personally, I enjoyed working with Tustin Unified primarily because I was a product of Tustin schools and grew up knowing the administrators that I would eventually work side by side with everyday. Part of my location's success was communication. Since my departure from that location, service issues are now becomming extremely evident. Almost loosing the contract to Durham School Services in 2004, First Student had to make some major adjustments in their operation tactics. As part of the new contract with TUSD, there is now a contigency that states that if the customer (TUSD) is not satisfied with service from the contractor (FS) they have the right to go out for bid despite the 5 year contract that was signed. This year, TUSD may just do that with continuing service issues that they are having with First Student. |
Edited by - PCW on 02/23/2006 5:01:58 PM |
|
|
|
william
Top Member
USA
1912 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2006 : 10:32:55 PM
|
| Worse Student, I suspect that Mr. Fine is an honorable man and was acting as positively, as he could from the information he received. But Laidlaw also received some negative comments, which wasn't addressed in the union smear sheet. When was the last time you saw a school district divulge the reason(s) a company lost a bid? That site is most certainly a union propaganda site and if you were to devote all your energies to smearing one specific company, you could probably find some negatives. As Amtran has said, no one is perfect and there are problems in any organization, including FIRST STUDENT. |
William |
|
|
|
80-RE4
Top Member
USA
5700 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 04:50:30 AM
|
For one second- don't just think that it is First Student that has a bad reputation in this type of work. I've never worked for First Student, but any school bus company will take advantage of its employees if allowed to do so, and trust me on this, it does not have to be a corporate giant such as Durham, Laidlaw or First Student.
Laidlaw lost the contract where I worked for and another company took over, now, there are people who tell me "I don't even want to wake up anymore to go to work, it is so hard to go to work" "Our little Laidlaw team -we can't trust anyone anymore" ( "I don't even want to wake up anymore to go to work"- is a sign of depression) And that seriously makes me feel so sad, but that is not the subject- I am just showing that it doesn't matter the company (I guess I was too fast to jump on First Student in some aspects-because it depends on the location)
To hear my "co-workers" at my other yard saying (they don't want to wake up to go to work anymore, -I don't want to go on because it makes me irritated-
It just doesn't pertain to First Student.
Look what Laidlaw pulled over us from 2001-2004- They stole money from us, and a lot of it, but guess what, we had someone smart on our team, who was into all of this, and realized that Laidlaw was pulling the wool over our eyes, and Laidlaw was fined, penalized and forced by the Attorney General to pay us back. Some employees received up to 2 thousand dollars back pay. The sad thing is "our so called devoted manager" knew about this.
So in any organization: They will screw you if you are not aware of what is going on, and the school bus driver, is usually, not always, but usually, on the basis (too scared for their jobs to do anything about it).
Back to First Student: First Student is an excellent company to work for IF (and only IF) you have a union OR you are not in it for any type of benefits- same with Laidlaw, they disgust me and they are unionized and they are getting ripped off, so it's called taking advantage of school bus drivers, the ones who carry around the most precious lives.
It makes it even a more thankless job. So my point: First Student isn't the only one with a bad rep, there are tons of them out there. Maybe, just maybe, this is why this type of job isn't going to be the preferred profession. Why put yourself through the misery when you can get a better job?
For those of you who are in high school and even not in high school- but mainly those who are in high school, who think that they are going to jump into this field of work- Please do yourself a favor: Further your education (I’m not saying -don't drive a bus) but put your college education first and drive the bus on the side, but do not make a career out of it. That is of school bus driving- I know some want to go further in the industry, and that is good, but at least have a back up plan. –Maybe like professional football players, they know how to play football, but do they have an education? Don’t let it go to waste.
The kids on my bus would say "I want to be just like you and drive a school bus as soon as I get out of high school" and I would say that's good but you have to promise me that you will get your college education first, and then maybe do this while you are going to college"
Pretty soon, Thomas Built, Amtran, Ic, BlueBird, and the other bus companies are going to have to start making auto pilot buses, because they are driving out the good, dedicated school bus drivers. |
Edited by - 80-RE4 on 02/24/2006 05:07:15 AM |
|
|
|
william
Top Member
USA
1912 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 05:50:03 AM
|
| For all it's worth, I agree with Amtran wholeheartedly, except the need for a union. I see drivers in my yard mostly stuck in school bus driving, some not even high school grads. In order to advance to a training or instructor position, the state requires a high school diploma, so here I have these people who would make excellent trainers denied the opportunity due to lack of education. We just lost a good dependable driver to the city to work as a laborer. She'll make considerable more pay per hour, but due to lack of education, she is again stuck in what I call a lateral position. |
William |
|
|
|
Sherm
Top Member
USA
621 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2006 : 08:53:34 AM
|
| For every bad contractor location, there are ten good ones. For every dissatisfied customer there are ten satisfied ones. For every unsafe district there are ten safe ones. Any attempt at fair and balanced reporting would reflect this and put things in proper perspective. If these folks are truly interested in exposing the "truth" about First Student, they would be taking all this into consideration. SEIU is a business with an agenda; they aren't interested in helping anyone but themselves. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Bad Rep Costs First Student a Contract
