There are too many C2 buses
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Topic URL: https://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15105
Printed on: 04/24/2024
Topic:
Topic author: 80-RE4
Subject: There are too many C2 buses I feel like the bus industry is being overtaken by the C2 buses (Thomas Safe T Liner C2)
Replies:
Posted on: 01/17/2007 04:03:37 AM
Message:
I was in a town the other day and saw nothing but those things and wanted to run away, until I saw something and it saved my day.
A BlueBird Vision (the one with those little windows). I used to think that the BlueBird Visions were ugly- but now they are NICE buses compared to the C2 models.
Am I the only one who feels this way? Why are the Thomas C2 buses taking over? So, if you want to order a Thomas conventional it has to be a C2? That is awful. I like Thomas Built....but....
Just my honest opinion.
Reply author: CPCSC_TD
Replied on: 01/17/2007 04:25:14 AM
Message:
I don't agree. You could always move far far away so you never have to see them.
Reply author: Lords47
Replied on: 01/17/2007 05:34:09 AM
Message:
oh NO! Don't look at my sig!
Reply author: 80-RE4
Replied on: 01/17/2007 05:40:22 AM
Message:
At least someone agrees with me that they look like little bugs...i dont think moving would be a solution, they are overtaking everything....
lords47...i think an ic-re or amtran re would look a lot better in your sig. pic. 
Reply author: Lords47
Replied on: 01/17/2007 05:43:38 AM
Message:
;) My company doesn't buy them... and for good reason heheheheh
But i WILL agree... i still prefer the FS-65
Reply author: 80-RE4
Replied on: 01/17/2007 06:02:32 AM
Message:
I don't blame your company for not buying the C2 buses.
I'm going to miss the FS 65 buses too, (i don't drive them, my bus is a FE) I just learned what they were not too long ago and now they decide to stop making them. Some other drivers told me they like the FS 65 over some other bus...I forgot what the other bus was?
The other buses they were talking about were conventionals but they had a yellow nose and the sun would reflect into their eyes. I think the FS 65 buses had the black noses so that would eliminate the sun from reflecting in their eyes...Or something along those means.
Reply author: Lords47
Replied on: 01/17/2007 06:12:48 AM
Message:
Oops... i meant my company doesn't buy Amtran RE's or IC RE's. We have plenty of C2's, or should I say ... a glorified mini-van. The pic in my sig is one of many C2's parked in our lot.
One thing I originally did NOT like, but now DO like is the hydraulic break peddle. All of our school buses have hydraulic brakes. In the FS-65 and most other school buses, the hydraulic lever is definately a pain to engage at every pickup/dropoff. The C2's have a peddle for the hyrdaulic brake, like what many cars and SUV's have. Push it with your left foot to engage, push it again to disengage. It makes student pickup/dropoff a breeze.
Reply author: School Bus M8
Replied on: 01/17/2007 06:36:27 AM
Message:
I don't like the C2's either. I love the FS-65 though and I think the retirement of them is a big loss. We don't have c2's in our town but a neighboring town has them.
My cousin plays football for the high school around here and they are a really good team. They kicked the neighboring towns butt on the Thanksgiving game. When the neighboring town went back on their bus the kids from our town were making fun of the bus they went back on; a c2. They started saying things like "look how gay their bus looks, it just their type of bus."(you know typical rivalry comments) The kids hate the c2s around here. They think they're ugly and are always commenting on them when they see the c2 drive by. However, the comments have died down since the kids don't really pay attention anymore.
If we were to get new buses we would most likely get ic-ce's. There are not too many c2's around here. Another neighboring town used to get the FS-65's but have since just recently changed to IC's.
I preferrably would choose a new Bluebird Vision over anything else follwed by an IC-Ce. Since the Vision update I hope to maybe see some more around here. I would like to see Bluebird reclaim some of it's territory again in this area. Years ago all you basically saw in this area was Bluebird and some Thomas. Whether it was a Ford,GMC or international it was most likely mounted on a Bluebird around here. Now its mostly IC.
I think though that since the loss of the FS-65 we will be seeing many of them being replaced by IC-CE's. However, if Bluebird would update their Visions like IC updated their Ce's (higher headroom, larger, one piece windshield, I bet they would sell like hotcakes around here providing the price is right and competitive.
Reply author: Lords47
Replied on: 01/17/2007 06:50:10 AM
Message:
Agreed. The style of the C2 is aggressive and a risky move on behalf of Thomas. Though my company does have many C2's because they have been a long time customer of Thomas products, we've been buying more and more of IC products. I think that is probably the case with many companies and districts.
I CAN say with confidence that the problems we've had with the C2 are substantially LESS than the problems we've had with our IC-CE200's with the VT-365 engine. All of our C2's (and about 1/2 of our FS-65's) are equipped with the MBE engine, which in my opinion is the best engine money can buy. Its extremely reliable, powerful and some-what quiet (when compared to the CAT C7). It is far superior to any engine offered by IC, CAT or Cummins... in my opinion of course.
I guess if IC started putting the MBE in their products, then we'd be talking. Until then...
Reply author: B. Busguy33
Replied on: 01/17/2007 08:35:13 AM
Message:
There are only two or three C2s within a 10 mile radius from where I live. One of the schools nearby purchased a C2 last summer to be used for school trips only. A nearby district owns/operates their own buses and their fleet is all GMC/Blue Bird and Blue Bird Vision with the exception of one or two C2s.
quote:
The C2's have a peddle for the hyrdaulic brake, like what many cars and SUV's have. Push it with your left foot to engage, push it again to disengage. It makes student pickup/dropoff a breeze.
I have not driven a C2 on a route, so I am not sure if I would like that parking brake pedal set-up. I would imagine it's better than the lever. However, I would think the push/pull parking brake that IC uses on their hydraulic-equipped buses is even easier to use than the pedal on the C2s.
Reply author: Lords47
Replied on: 01/17/2007 08:38:49 AM
Message:
quote:
However, I would think the push/pull parking brake that IC uses on their hydraulic-equipped buses is even easier to use than the pedal on the C2s.
You would think correct. Also, the layout of the controls is much more user-friendly and ergonomically correct in an IC vs. C2.
Reply author: SchoolBusFan
Replied on: 01/17/2007 11:58:17 AM
Message:
For me I'd be running away from the looks of the IC RE, jk. I do like Thomas' buses better; like most I prefer the previous conventional. The only Thomas Saf-T-Liner C2 I saw in person was in Las Vegas; a white activity bus in a private school parking lot. If there are problems with them mechanically, hopefully they're solved soon.
Reply author: Bus9709
Replied on: 01/17/2007 12:04:30 PM
Message:
What?......C2s are a good thing! Lol! And I've got three C2 posters on the wall in my room. 
Reply author: IC RE 1629
Replied on: 01/17/2007 1:16:40 PM
Message:
I'd actually like to see a few more in this area. I know of less then 30 C2's within 100 miles of where I am. That's not too many if you think about it.
Reply author: Jake
Replied on: 01/17/2007 2:32:24 PM
Message:
I've only seen one C2 in person in my whole life. Ah las, better than the CE's i guess.
~Jake~
Reply author: School Bus M8
Replied on: 01/17/2007 2:46:41 PM
Message:
The 2009 BB Vision that Jarod made on his site looks like it would be an awesome bus if Bluebird actually went foward with it.
Reply author: 78fordwayne
Replied on: 01/17/2007 3:49:27 PM
Message:
I still have not seen a C2 in person. We are being over runed by CEs 
Reply author: BBInt.10
Replied on: 01/17/2007 4:53:25 PM
Message:
I believe C2's were just approved by the CT DMV for use in this state, so I'll probably start to see some more of them soon. I've seen two in this state so far, one just last week. So Amtran, if you want to move to an area that's almost C2-Free, venture on down to CT. I'm not a huge fan of them basically because when I'm driving a bus, I like to feel like I'm driving a bus, not a "glorified mini van", as someone else put it. I like to sit high, swing wide, and use my arm rather than my finger to open the door. These new buses make things too easy on the driver. For me, if there isn't a challenge every now and then, the job gets a little boring. I drive an '05 IC CE, however I always take one of our '93 Blue Birds on trips whenever I can, and would switch permanently to one of these buses for my route if I could. But that's just me.
Reply author: Jim
Replied on: 01/17/2007 4:56:29 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by WV108
Come on over to our county. We've already got 32 of them. You'll get to see the ridiculously tall seat backs that WV requires as of this year.
I forgot to check those out the day I was there. But I'm sure the kids up your way are angels and you don't have to worry about what they are doing down in the seats!
Reply author: B. Busguy33
Replied on: 01/17/2007 5:14:21 PM
Message:
quote:
You would think correct. Also, the layout of the controls is much more user-friendly and ergonomically correct in an IC vs. C2.
I would have to agree with you on that one. I prefer the "wrap-around" design of the IC CE driver's area.
quote:
For me I'd be running away from the looks of the IC RE, jk. I do like Thomas' buses better; like most I prefer the previous conventional.
If CCSD operated some IC REs, perhaps you'd like 'em more.
If they had some IC REs, with their specs, I would have to consider relocating!
Reply author: Gini
Replied on: 01/17/2007 6:31:13 PM
Message:
the only not-ugly C2 i've seen is Loudoun Cos shorty C2. the shorter length balanced out that skinny width. looked ok. as for the others, blech!
Reply author: 722
Replied on: 01/17/2007 7:20:27 PM
Message:
We have several C2's with MB906 engines. Other than a few minor adjustments that have been adjusted on site by the dealer, the bodies have been trouble free. As for the Mercedes engine, they have been flawless.
We have them in 54-passenger with lift, 77-passenger and 77-passenger with lift. Drivers report that they can put them anywhere that they could put thier transit style bus (and in some places they could'nt). The drivers like the smooth ride, the performance of the bus (hill climbing and ablity to hold a steady speed on the highway) Just different looking at first.
Reply author: NWCROWN
Replied on: 01/17/2007 10:51:55 PM
Message:
I have yet to see a C2 in Southwest Washington, but have recently seen a few Visions. Southwest Washington as a whole is mostly moving to transit-style buses.
Reply author: ICfan
Replied on: 01/18/2007 06:02:41 AM
Message:
Dave - the company thats runs Thomaston and Plymouth has one c2, I know a driver from Thomaston who lives in Torrington who does not like the c2 at all. I see more CE and BB Int. than anyhting in CT, hopfully we might see some Vision buses!
Reply author: Rich
Replied on: 01/18/2007 06:41:23 AM
Message:
AmTran, don't move to NY. There are over 300 C2s within a 50 mile radius of my house!
Reply author: IC RE 1629
Replied on: 01/18/2007 07:09:41 AM
Message:
What states would you say that the C2 is most popular in?
Reply author: Rich
Replied on: 01/18/2007 07:15:02 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by IC RE 1629
What states would you say that the C2 is most popular in?
I believe NC, SC, FL, and NY have the highest numbers of C2's at this point.
Reply author: CPCSC_TD
Replied on: 01/18/2007 11:45:55 AM
Message:
Southeast Michigan has a high volume of the c2's. They have their popularity coast to coast just like the other manufacturers.
Reply author: ICfan
Replied on: 01/18/2007 11:53:58 AM
Message:
I would agree with rich on the states his said.
Reply author: Bus9709
Replied on: 01/18/2007 12:04:15 PM
Message:
Florida? You better believe it. Lol. My county probably bought around 24 C2s for the 05-06 school year. Then we bought another batch for this year. Lol!
Reply author: kentuckynascar1
Replied on: 01/18/2007 12:04:17 PM
Message:
I have seen only one C2-a Mulenburg Co. bus in Lexington, so they are in KY
Reply author: BusFreak
Replied on: 01/18/2007 1:14:45 PM
Message:
Does anyone have a picture of a North Carolina SCHOOL BUS spec C2? Ive seen the activity buses, but not a school bus yet.
Reply author: 03CV200
Replied on: 01/18/2007 3:03:08 PM
Message:
C2's are new to my district, we only have 3 out of about 50 buses. I hated them at first, but after riding on one, and looking at more of them up close, they are actually growing on me. In response to the hydraulic brake lever, out of the total 13yrs. that I rode a bus (many different drivers over the years), ony ONE (1) driver ever engaged the parking brake at every pickup/drop-off. However, as the year went on, he did it less and less until he gave it up all together.
Reply author: BusBoy
Replied on: 01/18/2007 6:57:35 PM
Message:
Bus9709,
Are you familiar with any of the Martin District Schools buses? If so what do they mostly run in their fleet?
Kevin
Reply author: 80-RE4
Replied on: 01/18/2007 7:42:34 PM
Message:
Oh look, another C2...
They look like ant eaters. My friend and I think so, with their snouty noses.
Attn: Thomas C2's belong in space.
Reply author: Lords47
Replied on: 01/19/2007 05:50:01 AM
Message:
Gotta admit.. thats a pretty funny picture.
Reply author: 78fordwayne
Replied on: 01/19/2007 4:10:35 PM
Message:
hmmmm... ant eater and C2...
I just dont see it
Reply author: 03CV200
Replied on: 01/19/2007 4:24:23 PM
Message:
Just try to appreciate the C2 for what it is. It took me years to do so but I did, they are unique in their own aspect. I must state though, I still think Blue Birds are number 1.
Reply author: CPCSC_TD
Replied on: 01/19/2007 5:11:10 PM
Message:
AmTran- if you think the c2 is an anteater, what's your interpretation of the IC? Gorilla with it's mouth wide open?
No matter how hard you try, you're not going to get Thomas to stop producing them. Actually, I thought I heard them say they are keeping them around just for you!
Reply author: HelenVPP
Replied on: 01/19/2007 5:26:13 PM
Message:
Well, If I heard right. And this may be slightly off topic but it does pertain to Thomas. Since Thomas staring Building this plastic and glue C2 unit, Blue Bird decided to build that type of bus in the EC72. From what I have heard here in Southern GA. Blue Bird will not build the EC unit, because it too is build of glue and plastic. This is just what I heard, I have no idea if it's true.
I had heard that the Blue Bird EC would not complete with the C2 because the bus would not pass side impact tests. Now if Blue Bird is going to back out of a cheaper "Vision" with the EC unit and now all of a sudden they decided that bus would not be up to their standards why the hell would anyone want a C2. It sounds like Blue Bird has wised up to this cheap concept that Thomas seems to embrace. I don't care what kind of glue that Thomas uses and I don't care if it was the same glue that is used in planes or on the Space Shuttle. If I remember correctly, a Hawaiian plane had it's roof ripped off with this same glue and a few years ago the Space Shuttle had parts falling off. The C2 is just a Tinker Toy and I can't believe that States allow this bus on the road. I would no sooner have my pet ride on that bus much less my grandchildren.
Reply author: Rich
Replied on: 01/19/2007 6:29:10 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by HelenVPP
Well, If I heard right. And this may be slightly off topic but it does pertain to Thomas. Since Thomas staring Building this plastic and glue C2 unit, Blue Bird decided to build that type of bus in the EC72. From what I have heard here in Southern GA. Blue Bird will not build the EC unit, because it too is build of glue and plastic. This is just what I heard, I have no idea if it's true.
I had heard that the Blue Bird EC would not complete with the C2 because the bus would not pass side impact tests. Now if Blue Bird is going to back out of a cheaper "Vision" with the EC unit and now all of a sudden they decided that bus would not be up to their standards why the hell would anyone want a C2. It sounds like Blue Bird has wised up to this cheap concept that Thomas seems to embrace. I don't care what kind of glue that Thomas uses and I don't care if it was the same glue that is used in planes or on the Space Shuttle. If I remember correctly, a Hawaiian plane had it's roof ripped off with this same glue and a few years ago the Space Shuttle had parts falling off. The C2 is just a Tinker Toy and I can't believe that States allow this bus on the road. I would no sooner have my pet ride on that bus much less my grandchildren.
I don't know why Blue Bird employees always find the need to conceal their identities, but it is no secret who you are! But anyway, I wont hold that against you, because I'm always in the mood for a spirited debate about buses!
Listen... the Vision and Blue Bird buses in general are excellent products. The bodies have been around for a while, so any problems with them are pretty much weeded out, and people are comfortable with them. They have had the same basic technology since the 60s and 70s, so what could possibly go wrong? That's all fine and good, and I admire Blue Bird for making a nice product.
Now - fast forward. The C2 is a multi-million dollar investment by DaimlerChrysler, that was designed to IMPROVE on school bus technologies already existing with Thomas and Freightliner, and improving on them.
An entirely new design has it's advantages and disadvtantages. New designs bring new ideas, modern ideas, which people get scared of. Adhesive for example is a new idea in the school bus industry, but has been around in hundreds of other techologies and industries for decades. And it works. Your NASA and airline references are unfounded. NASA's problems haven't been related to adhesive, my friend... I'd suggest you do some research before you post about it.
Now your "plastic reference" what does that refer to? The only plastic I can think of on the C2 is the modern driver's area and front bulkhead. Now if I recall correctly, the C2 has a much more ergonomic driver's area then the Vision. The Vision's driver's area is as good as the FS-65, but nowhere near the C2 or CE in terms of styling and ergonomics. The dash is nice, yes, but come on, stop complaining about plastic. It's not like it's cracking or anything, what's so bad about it?
The C2 has so many more things the Vision doesn't have too. Don't like where a switch is? Okay, pop it out and put it where you want. No rewiring required! Brake light out and you didn't realize it in a pre-trip? Step on the brake pedal and the indicator flashes when a light is out. Want to check all of your exterior lights with ease? Follow the procedure and start the check! Want to see the kids in the loading zone? Look through the side windows, and the huge windshield,and see what the REAL vision is!
The C2 is a scary bus! Why? Because people in this industry are used to the 60s bodies! Get over it! Blue Bird wouldn't have tried adhesive in the first place if they didn't think it was safe. Just because that bus didn't meet crash testing doesn't mean the adhesive is bad, it means Blue Birds engineering on the bus was bad!
The biggest difference between the EC and the C2 is that the EC was designed to be a cheap bus for contractors. The C2 is a heavy duty bus designed for anybody - and you pay for what you get for, with better technology that the competition.
Now let me reiterate - I like the Vision, and yes, I'd definitely consider purchasing one. But please, keep your mind open! New products are scary, but the C2 is a good bus, and it is here to stay.
Please, if you want to badmouth the competition in the future, just use your regular member name!
Reply author: CPCSC_TD
Replied on: 01/19/2007 7:16:15 PM
Message:
Richard, you bring up some outstanding points.
I find it interesting how many in this industry don't accept change. They will however, accept the msot advancements in the automotive industry. Have to be one of the first to get the new this or new that from Toyota or GM. Yet, when it comes to a bus, the only change anyone traditionally accepted was the cowl changes.
The plastic point is interesting. They have all gone to plastic and fiberglass dash boards. Much of IC is all plastic along with the C2. Bluebird has a lot of plastic yet probably the least. The bulk head is still the true steel (coul;d be metal but I assume steel- seems very strong)
Great points.
Reply author: Bus9709
Replied on: 01/19/2007 7:59:06 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by BusBoy
Bus9709,
Are you familiar with any of the Martin District Schools buses? If so what do they mostly run in their fleet?
Kevin
No, I'm not familiar with Martin District school buses. Sorry about that if you needed to know any info.
Reply author: Cody
Replied on: 01/19/2007 9:48:24 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by HelenVPP
If I remember correctly, a Hawaiian plane had it's roof ripped off with this same glue and a few years ago the Space Shuttle had parts falling off.
And if I remember correctly, the roof structure being torn of the Aloha Airlines 732 was because of metal fatigue. It was one of the planes with top cycles in its lifetime due to the short flights of inter-island flights, so each time the plane pressurized the metal would stretch out and then go back to normal after landing. The cause was NOT because of a glue failing!
(sorry, big on the aviation industry, had to post that)
Reply author: CPCSC_TD
Replied on: 01/20/2007 05:39:33 AM
Message:
I follow the aviation industry to a small degree also- didn't know that about that flight. Was the plane they made the movie on during the 80's?
I always wondered what happened to that plane.
One of the things I like about school buses is if we loose pressure, we are still on the ground. Once up above, not many choices.
Cody- did you know about the Canadian flight that literallly lost power in the air and had to glide in circles to land? I saw a special on this and couldn't believe the plane landed so easily.
Didn't mean to change the subject but what a comparisson- buses loose power and either slow down safely or clip an object. Planes loose power, good luck
Reply author: 03CV200
Replied on: 01/20/2007 06:56:30 AM
Message:
I've heard of an adhesive that is stronger than 3/16 or 1/4" steel.
Reply author: IC
Replied on: 01/20/2007 08:16:26 AM
Message:
I remember that Aloha 737 accident...as Cody mentioned, it was caused by metal fatigue due to too many pressurizations. A stewardess was sucked out when the roof came off, never to be seen again. The passengers survived what must have been a WILD ride....the crew did an excellent job landing that thing!
Remember the first commercial jet airliner, the deHavilland Comet? The early models were plagued by several crashes also due to metal fatigue...the fusilage metal used was too thin in order to save weight. They fixed it in later models but the Comet never became as successful as it might have if not for those early fatal crashes. The venerable Boeing 707 then stepped in as the first very successful commercial jet airliner.
Yup, no glue involved in any of this.
Reply author: skoolhack
Replied on: 01/20/2007 11:15:45 AM
Message:
http://www.assemblymag.com/CDA/Archives/ac2275c53f5c9010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____
The construction method used on the C2 is not new or "experimental". Follow the above link for a good article on the manufacturing technique used in C2 construction.
If, in fact, BBird has chosen not to manufacture the EC-72, it would be my guess that it is was for economic reasons rather than regulatory ones.
As for the original thread topic, everyone is entitled to their opinion but as JFK once said, "Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
Reply author: Nick
Replied on: 01/20/2007 12:02:06 PM
Message:
quote:
did you know about the Canadian flight that literallly lost power in the air and had to glide in circles to land? I saw a special on this and couldn't believe the plane landed so easily.
That was Air Canada 143. On that flight, the computerized "fuel gauges" on the plane were broken, so they had to calculate the weight for themselves. They knew the volume, but they converted the volume to pounds instead of kilograms, which is what the aircraft used. So, the aircraft thought there was more fuel on board than there actually was. Needless to say, they ran out of fuel on the way and had to emergency land on an abandoned military base.
The aircraft is still in service with Air Canada today.
Rumor has it that when mechanics were sent to repair the aircraft, their van ran out of fuel on the way.
Nick
Reply author: SchoolBusFan
Replied on: 01/20/2007 12:50:52 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by IC
I remember that Aloha 737 accident...as Cody mentioned, it was caused by metal fatigue due to too many pressurizations. A stewardess was sucked out when the roof came off, never to be seen again. The passengers survived what must have been a WILD ride....the crew did an excellent job landing that thing!
I just googled the TV movie made after this happened. Well, downloaded a video with the main points about it. It was on Aloha Airlines (not Hawaiian Airlines which is larger airline). It was a pretty good TV movie, here's some pictures. I forgot the name, I think it was called "Miracle Landing". I think the a cause for the metal fatigue was it exceeded the number of pressurizations recommended by Boeing by about a 1,000. A passenger noticed a crack as he boarded, but never reported it before he boarded on that flight. Tail N73711 (recently re-registered to another newer 737, a 737-700):
Before
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0074336/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0003148/M/
After
http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/rich/MECH353/Aloha.JPG
http://www.pilotfriend.com/disasters/crash/images/21.jpg
http://faalessons.workforceconnect.org/rawmedia_repository/9cc0f4b5_c25a_45b1_a2d5_8d981d5b08f5
http://video.google.com/url?vidurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2Fvideoplay%3Fdocid%3D7108257980267824858%26q%3DAloha%2B243%26hl%3Den&docid=7108257980267824858&ev=v&esrc=sr1&usg=AL29H22ip7PeaUbefDze7nm9F9nJnPcfuQ
http://video.google.com/url?vidurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2Fvideoplay%3Fdocid%3D6976968234725890098%26q%3DAloha%2B243%26hl%3Den&docid=6976968234725890098&ev=v&esrc=sr2&usg=AL29H20-79wFFx3xncmn_onwX0JK_cA-7A
I heard Boeing nicknamed it as being the "convertable aircraft".
quote:
If I remember correctly, a Hawaiian plane had it's roof ripped off with this same glue and a few years ago the Space Shuttle had parts falling off.
I doubt the C2 will go over 300 MPH & getting pressurized.
Reply author: ltrain2001
Replied on: 01/20/2007 12:57:17 PM
Message:
Has anyone come across any C2s with a manual transmission? Richard, I know you said that they are offered, just curious if anyone's seen one out there.
Reply author: 03CV200
Replied on: 01/20/2007 3:01:40 PM
Message:
Richard told me they no longer offer them and only two were ever produced.
Reply author: ltrain2001
Replied on: 01/20/2007 4:02:11 PM
Message:
Does anyone have any pics of the C2 with a manual tranny?
Reply author: dcox
Replied on: 01/21/2007 02:01:23 AM
Message:
Just to clear up the many myths and misunderstandings that i have read so far, i intend to answer some of the questions that i have seen so far.The adhesives used on the c2 body are far stronger than anything i have ever used.And to the best of my knowledge even the companies that are in the Daimler Chrysler family do not have access to it.For the curious ones out there test samples on 8x8x16 gua. steel panels have torn apart on the clamp side before the joints have seperated.As far as driver comfort, i drove trucks otr for 10 years and even drove an 88 Ford Thomas in H.S. and i have yet to see anything remotely close to the c2.Thanks to technology you can remove 6 screws and put the switches in any order that you feel comfortable with ,none of the others offer this advantage.This bus is designed with passenger safety and drivers in mind.As for manual trannys there have been more than 2 made,auto trans. are not an option , they are standard.Manuals can be ordered, but why bother,fore there are not many that like or know how to drive them anyway.As for pictures good luck,rumor is they will fire employees who use their camrea phones inside the plant,and there are to many units that roll off the line to keep up with the destinations of each one.All vehicle builders have issues and glitches with their products, and Thomas is no better, but i do know that there are individuals on the job to ensure that the units are safe and reliable.Most of the issues that have been seen and discussed here fall back on FCCC,not the actual Thomas body.As for the NC units, they basically look like the Florida unit w/o the black rails .I can answer some questions for those that have them , but i can only tell so much without putting my job at risk.And thanks to everybody for the feedback, a special thanks to the Thomas fans , because you will see a better and more innovative product coming.The C2 is the bus of the future and will continue to be for a long time to come.
Reply author: pbfreak30
Replied on: 01/21/2007 11:10:01 AM
Message:
my county has bought about 35 c2's in the past two years...i love the Benz engines...the one and only problem with mine is that the kids complain that the seats are close together than in the fs-65's that we have...but 2 of our C2's troublefull one, bus 73, is in the shop for at least 4 days a month, and bus 80 the first day we got it something in the engine(Cat C7) let go and it hasnt been back since
Reply author: 78fordwayne
Replied on: 01/21/2007 11:20:30 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by pbfreak30
my county has bought about 35 c2's in the past two years...i love the Benz engines...the one and only problem with mine is that the kids complain that the seats are close together than in the fs-65's that we have...but 2 of our C2's troublefull one, bus 73, is in the shop for at least 4 days a month, and bus 80 the first day we got it something in the engine(Cat C7) let go and it hasnt been back since
Not having seen a C2 in person this shouldnt be to dumb of a question
. Are the seats closer to together on the passenger side of the bus? Because of the slanted windshield and the door and all that? Kind of like type D buses?
Reply author: Jim
Replied on: 01/21/2007 11:26:59 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by 78fordwayne
Not having seen a C2 in person this shouldnt be to dumb of a question
On mine, I've never really paid attention if they are closer together or not. But instead of the seats being "directly" across from the ones on the driver's side, they are staggered a bit, not even with the other side. As you get closer to the back of the bus, they do even out. Sometimes on trips, I take a nap and I usually have to go almost all the way to the back in order to get comfortable so I'm not having to lay sideways. Gosh, after reading what I just wrote, maybe the passenger side seats are closer together! LOL!
**I found a couple of pics of my bus that may show this. If you look closely starting with the front seat, you can tell the left side starts closer to the front than the right side does. And mine is a 77 passenger so there are 13 rows of seats on each side.
Reply author: 03CV200
Replied on: 01/21/2007 11:28:17 AM
Message:
Based on people I have talked to, they are. I do know though, that in the 81 passenger versions, there are 14 seats behind the driver and 13 on the passenger side so that may be how they compensate for the step back on the passenger side on all versions.
Reply author: 80-RE4
Replied on: 01/21/2007 12:19:45 PM
Message:
Okay! Maybe they don't compare 100 percent to the ant eater! Maybe something else. They're not real school buses. I do like Thomas Built Buses- but only my bus (Thomas MVP Front Engine). And I like IC-Amtran RE buses (nice ones), and I like the looks of some Blue-Birds.
Best School buses ever:
My old AmTran RE
and
My current Thomas FE
PS: I know they are "real" school buses- and maybe someday I will get used to them, right now I just like what I'm used to. Real looking school buses!
Reply author: CPCSC_TD
Replied on: 01/21/2007 12:45:00 PM
Message:
AmTran- they do look like school buses. They have flashing lights, yellow paint, windshield, seats for students, and everything else school buses have.
Perhaps you don't care for the style. That's no reason for them to stop making them.
Reply author: 80-RE4
Replied on: 01/21/2007 1:39:29 PM
Message:
Maybe so...but if I had my way - every conventional and front engine would be distinct. The only school bus would be a rear engine model!
Reply author: 03CV200
Replied on: 01/21/2007 2:06:51 PM
Message:
No doubt, the C2's are definetly unique SCHOOL BUSES and can take time to get used to; however, I think little touches like aluminum wheels, can help aid in the process.
P.S.:What's with the first window, why is it differnt from the rest? Anyone have any idea?
Reply author: thomas86_a
Replied on: 01/21/2007 2:25:24 PM
Message:
The door/drivers window and first passenger window on each side were most likely speced with frost-free glass. You'll notice a difference on traditional Thomas Builts a difference in the glass-panes on the door and passenger windows when speced this way as well. It's also possible to spec the regular glass and just leave it tint-free which is the other possibility.
Reply author: CPCSC_TD
Replied on: 01/21/2007 3:41:19 PM
Message:
If you look closely at the top window, it is thicker indicating the frost free window option. Prevents window from fogging up and getting frost on it.
Many districts in cold climates spec that option.
Reply author: 80-RE4
Replied on: 01/21/2007 5:47:14 PM
Message:
i would like that option on my fe
Reply author: Kodie
Replied on: 01/22/2007 5:51:04 PM
Message:
I agree in my opinion the C2 is one of the few buses that isay is just plain ugly. Have you ever seen the mirrors on the Thomas ER's they look like they belong on a bug. LONG LIVE IC BUSES.
Reply author: Kodie
Replied on: 01/22/2007 5:53:23 PM
Message:
IC buses are the nicest buses on the road today. Thomas buses look like they belong on planet fraflooga or something.
quote:
Originally posted by CPCSC_TD
AmTran- if you think the c2 is an anteater, what's your interpretation of the IC? Gorilla with it's mouth wide open?
No matter how hard you try, you're not going to get Thomas to stop producing them. Actually, I thought I heard them say they are keeping them around just for you!
Reply author: Rich
Replied on: 01/22/2007 7:13:05 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by IC Dave
IC buses are the nicest buses on the road today. Thomas buses look like they belong on planet fraflooga or something.quote:
Originally posted by CPCSC_TD
AmTran- if you think the c2 is an anteater, what's your interpretation of the IC? Gorilla with it's mouth wide open?
No matter how hard you try, you're not going to get Thomas to stop producing them. Actually, I thought I heard them say they are keeping them around just for you!
Thanks for the input. Now get back to me in 10 years when those IC's in upstate NY rot apart.
Reply author: BBInt.10
Replied on: 01/22/2007 8:00:33 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by IC Dave
IC buses are the nicest buses on the road today. Thomas buses look like they belong on planet fraflooga or something.quote:
Originally posted by CPCSC_TD
AmTran- if you think the c2 is an anteater, what's your interpretation of the IC? Gorilla with it's mouth wide open?
No matter how hard you try, you're not going to get Thomas to stop producing them. Actually, I thought I heard them say they are keeping them around just for you!
I agree the IC's are probably the best looking on the road, however Richard has a point with the rust, and quality in general. I drive an '05 IC CE and you should see how rusty the back bumper is. It's pathetic. Our 1993 Blue Birds have less rust on their rear bumpers. I'm not sure who to say has the best bus... in my opinion, they all have their ups and downs, and quality is IC's biggest issue I think.
Reply author: School Bus M8
Replied on: 01/23/2007 06:46:57 AM
Message:
I have to agree. IC-CE is an awesome looking bus inside and out but I have to question there up holding due to past experience with them. A lot of shaking,rusting and screws falling out. I'm not sure about these new IcCe's though, maybe the quality is better. The IC-Ce has a lot of potential.
But as of now I would still take an Ic-Ce over a c2. I just can't adapt to the look of the Thomas...........Too European for me. I would take a Vision over both right now.
I know someone mentioned before that the same people that are dissing the c2 are the same ones that love when a new style car comes out. Well, to me theres a difference. Some cars I like the new styles I.E. Durango, Explorer, Escalade. And there are some that I don't like I.E. the new Chevy Impala. I haven't really seen any cars that I liked make any changes that are as extreme as the changes of a school bus as the c2.
Bottom line is the c2 is too much of a change for me. I don't like them, I think they're ugly and they don't have that traditional American School bus look. Thats my opinion and I can't honestly change that.
Reply author: CPCSC_TD
Replied on: 01/23/2007 11:51:14 AM
Message:
Too much of a change? There really isn't much unless you are speaking of the multiplex or engineering design.
The wanring lights are flush- so minor change. Windhsield is one piece- no much difference. Body is more squre- similar to a Wayne.
I see it is different because we are not used to many design enhancements. Unlike the automotive industry where you have a lot of manufacturers, changes in body styles are routine. Look at the Auto Show.
On the flip side, when you are down to three, when one changes anything, it is noticed.
I believe this is more a situation of accepting the differences of the design. Like most, eventually it will grow on you or become a parasite to you- and I think for AmTran80, the parasite has taken over.
Reply author: 03CV200
Replied on: 01/23/2007 12:40:58 PM
Message:
I must disagree, the C2 is definetly a different looking bus, especially when compared to the FS-65. First graders are noting how different it looks for god sakes. I must say though, that I do like it.
Reply author: pbfreak30
Replied on: 01/24/2007 06:10:11 AM
Message:
the little kids in my area call the c2 the Space Bus...they LOVE the way it looks
Reply author: IC
Replied on: 01/24/2007 08:04:16 AM
Message:
I can't help but wonder if anybody besides us busnuts or little kids even notice the revolutionary appearance of the C-2?
I remember, that just 3 years ago, before I started training, they had me "ride-along" with a driver on his route to observe (their way of giving a last chance to chicken out!). Anyway, I was SURE that this guy's '97 Thomas ER was a brand new bus...shows how much I knew!
I also wonder if any bus purchaser buys buses based on appearance? I kinda doubt it. Isn't it mainly price? But, if one prefers Thomas conventionals, then the only choice now is a C-2...like it or not, right?
Reply author: Kodie
Replied on: 01/24/2007 1:55:21 PM
Message:
Come on the IC bus corporation does have rust problems but paint can fix that, but paint does not fix ugly. LONG LIVE IC.
Reply author: 78fordwayne
Replied on: 01/24/2007 4:03:46 PM
Message:
I know the schools in my area could care less what the bus looks like when its new.
Most of them will only buy a product from a dealer that they like. Doesnt matter what product the dealer is selling.
Another school will only by a bus with an International DT466. Well now and days that only leaves one option :)
Reply author: 03CV200
Replied on: 01/24/2007 5:04:55 PM
Message:
Paint can't fix rust, it just covers it up until it bleeds through again.
Reply author: School Bus M8
Replied on: 01/24/2007 5:57:31 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by IC
I also wonder if any bus purchaser buys buses based on appearance? I kinda doubt it. Isn't it mainly price? But, if one prefers Thomas conventionals, then the only choice now is a C-2...like it or not, right?
I think you're 100% right. I bet most bus purchasers most likely don't care what the bus looks like. In My opinion I think it basically comes down to how much bang the purchaser can get for their buck! That also make me ask didit really make sense to make such a dramatic change to the Thomas.
Reply author: School Bus M8
Replied on: 01/24/2007 6:05:19 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by IC Dave
but paint does not fix ugly. LONG LIVE IC.
Can't argue with that.
Reply author: School Bus M8
Replied on: 01/24/2007 6:10:38 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by CPCSC_TD
Too much of a change? There really isn't much unless you are speaking of the multiplex or engineering design.
Whether the change of the bus is a little or a lot, I still think the c2 is ass ugly! Thats just my opinion i'm not going to lie and say I like the looks of it. I wish Thomas the best though. Thats just my taste when it comes to buses.
Reply author: Kodie
Replied on: 01/25/2007 7:41:00 PM
Message:
Okay yeah paint bleeds through but a little grinding and then paint will do it you can't grind the ugly out of thomas and of course you don't want it to fall apart now.
Reply author: Kodie
Replied on: 01/25/2007 7:44:35 PM
Message:
How about this Thomas fans. Since there are mixed opinions about the C2 what do you think looks better an IC RE or a Thomas ER. In our Buffalo area the laidlaw company owns a number of Thomas buses and I can't help but notice that they are rusty and they are so loud you can't even hear yourself think.
Reply author: Kodie
Replied on: 01/25/2007 8:24:30 PM
Message:
If you think thomas is so good look at the picture contest section in the SBF homepage and look at all the Thomas buses in the repair
shop. I don't see a single Blue Bird or IC bus anywhere, but does that suprise you.
Reply author: 80-RE4
Replied on: 01/25/2007 8:28:58 PM
Message:
Amtran RE and IC RE buses will always be #1 no matter what kind of buses are made, even if Thomas came out with the Wonder Bus 3999 with wings.
Reply author: 78fordwayne
Replied on: 01/25/2007 8:30:39 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by IC Dave
If you think thomas is so good look at the picture contest section in the SBF homepage and look at all the Thomas buses in the repair
shop. I don't see a single Blue Bird or IC bus anywhere, but does that suprise you.
ummm Do you even know what you are talking about?
I see just has many ICs and Blue Birds in the shop as Thomases
Reply author: Cody
Replied on: 01/26/2007 04:56:48 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by IC Dave
If you think thomas is so good look at the picture contest section in the SBF homepage and look at all the Thomas buses in the repair
shop. I don't see a single Blue Bird or IC bus anywhere, but does that suprise you.
And has it occured to you that the certain fleet in the picture could be all Thomas'?
Reply author: Chris
Replied on: 01/26/2007 06:56:08 AM
Message:
This topic is full of fun responses so I think I'll add mine.
FORD IS THE BEST VEHICLE EVER TO BE PRODUCED AND ALWAYS WILL BE!!!
Reply author: Rich
Replied on: 01/26/2007 08:44:56 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by IC Dave
How about this Thomas fans. Since there are mixed opinions about the C2 what do you think looks better an IC RE or a Thomas ER. In our Buffalo area the laidlaw company owns a number of Thomas buses and I can't help but notice that they are rusty and they are so loud you can't even hear yourself think.
Reply author: Kodie
Replied on: 01/26/2007 09:07:40 AM
Message:
AmTRAN and IC's are the best and thanks for supporting. This is a heated topic, I am suprised how many people have responded. Now when it comes to Ford I don't know. Found On Road Dead
Reply author: Thomas Ford 85-16
Replied on: 01/26/2007 12:35:11 PM
Message:
I don't think the topic was ever meant to be a manufacturer bashing place. I don't understand how people get emotional about brands time and time again. If you want some adrenaline, do a search and see how many times this has happened before (a name "Steven Rosenow" comes to mind 
).
I think the biggest thing that would end this ridiculousness is to accept that "fans" will never have a say in what goes on with these designs... Manufacturers design what is safe and what will sell, and obviously that's being accomplished for a multitude of reasons for each product. ICs offer a less-expensive, traditional product; Thomas is a bit more innovative and expensive; Blue Bird is tried and true traditional.
I must disagree with the "paint will fix rust" statement. Every manufacturer has offered some engineered rust as standard equipment from time to time, but if you've ever worked on a steel body, paint will just cover it up...the rust will not go away unless you grind it away, stop the source of moisture, properly paint and prime the area, and if necessary, seal the leak points. I'd rather have something ugly than something rotting beneath the paint...and that goes for any manufacturer.
Reply author: Buskid
Replied on: 01/26/2007 12:59:12 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Ford 85-16
Every manufacturer has offered some engineered rust as standard equipment from time to time ...
You have such a way with words, Mike. I don't know why, but that made me laugh.
Reply author: Kodie
Replied on: 01/26/2007 1:38:03 PM
Message:
You are the most logical person so far. I agree that we don't have a say in design as much as we would like.
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Ford 85-16
I don't think the topic was ever meant to be a manufacturer bashing place. I don't understand how people get emotional about brands time and time again. If you want some adrenaline, do a search and see how many times this has happened before (a name "Steven Rosenow" comes to mind
I think the biggest thing that would end this ridiculousness is to accept that "fans" will never have a say in what goes on with these designs... Manufacturers design what is safe and what will sell, and obviously that's being accomplished for a multitude of reasons for each product. ICs offer a less-expensive, traditional product; Thomas is a bit more innovative and expensive; Blue Bird is tried and true traditional.
I must disagree with the "paint will fix rust" statement. Every manufacturer has offered some engineered rust as standard equipment from time to time, but if you've ever worked on a steel body, paint will just cover it up...the rust will not go away unless you grind it away, stop the source of moisture, properly paint and prime the area, and if necessary, seal the leak points. I'd rather have something ugly than something rotting beneath the paint...and that goes for any manufacturer.
Reply author: 03CV200
Replied on: 01/26/2007 2:58:58 PM
Message:
I think the answer is simple. It is all purly a matter of opinion. I know people who swear by IC, other by Thomas, and others by Blue Bird. It just depends on what you like. Who cares what others think, as long as YOU are happy with an IC, a Thomas, or a Blue Bird, thats all that really matters.
Reply author: CPCSC_TD
Replied on: 01/26/2007 5:04:03 PM
Message:
I agree that we don't have a say in design as much as we would like.
I did a phone survey today with a manufacturer based on many facades of the bus, chassis and body. The survey lasted about 30 minutes so I think they do take what we say seriously. They simply can't survey everyone. They always aim to survey those that have experience hands, in management or operations. We saw this first hand in Jared Wayne RE video and the Thomas C2 video. IC did a great video also.
One thing to remember: They represent mechanics and transportation specialists from all 50 states and other countries. They are trying to make a vehicle that meets everyone's wish list but we know that can't ever happen to EVERYONE'S satisfaction. Now, take it a step further- the cost of desinging a new product and changing the factory line for production- does anyone realize the amount of money it takes? It is unreal the dollar amount assesed. IC, Bluebird and recently Thomas have revamped their production lines.
Reply author: BBInt.10
Replied on: 01/26/2007 7:57:38 PM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by IC
I can't help but wonder if anybody besides us busnuts or little kids even notice the revolutionary appearance of the C-2?
Yes, the average Joe does notice the C2. It's a real head turner. They were just approved by the CT DMV, so we're starting to see some in this state but they're extremely rare. I was driving a ski charter the other week and a C2 pulled into the lot at the ski mountain, and the coach on my bus commented about the looks of that bus. I was surprised to hear someone not into the bus industry make a comment about the bus.
Reply author: 80-RE4
Replied on: 01/27/2007 04:46:31 AM
Message:
quote:no but i'm glad it's staying clean
Originally posted by WV108
Hey 80Amtran, did you ever thing your topic would get so many replies? I'm impressed!
The other day, the kids on the bus noticed the C2 and said HEY there is that wierd looking bus again, we were on that bus before.
(they were k-3) mostly.
Sadly to me, when I asked them, what bus they liked better, they said they liked that bus. Then I said what about this bus?? I think they saw the "sadness" in my face
and I pursuaded them to say that they liked both buses the same!But I think the kids are starting to like the C2 buses better
So, they do notice. One kid did save the day when he said that he liked all buses the same.
They are so funny (the kids). They do call it the funny looking bus or the wierd looking bus, but they do like it, go figure!
Reply author: CPCSC_TD
Replied on: 01/27/2007 05:25:22 AM
Message:
AmTran- could it be kids are easier to accept change? Usually yes. As we get older, change is harder for individuals to handle- thus shedding some light why the kids might like the bus or accept more than you. Just a thought.
Reply author: 80-RE4
Replied on: 01/27/2007 06:05:46 AM
Message:
quote:Maybe, but even as a kid, I didn't like change as much, as I think about it. The fleet of buses that we used to have when I was in middle school was basically the conventional buses (I only knew them as buses). Then came along this funny looking bus, that said BlueBird all over it, with a big black box in the front (the engine) and a door that opened by itself and made a hissing noise. I was so embarrassed to be on that bus because it was the oddball of the fleet.
Originally posted by CPCSC_TD
AmTran- could it be kids are easier to accept change? Usually yes. As we get older, change is harder for individuals to handle- thus shedding some light why the kids might like the bus or accept more than you. Just a thought.
Change?? I've adapted to change- I once said that I would never drive a front engine bus, but hey, I'm driving a Thomas FE!
Reply author: Thomas Ford 85-16
Replied on: 01/27/2007 07:15:53 AM
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by CPCSC_TD
I agree that we don't have a say in design as much as we would like.
I did a phone survey today with a manufacturer based on many facades of the bus, chassis and body. The survey lasted about 30 minutes so I think they do take what we say seriously. They simply can't survey everyone. They always aim to survey those that have experience hands, in management or operations. We saw this first hand in Jared Wayne RE video and the Thomas C2 video. IC did a great video also.
One thing to remember: They represent mechanics and transportation specialists from all 50 states and other countries. They are trying to make a vehicle that meets everyone's wish list but we know that can't ever happen to EVERYONE'S satisfaction. Now, take it a step further- the cost of desinging a new product and changing the factory line for production- does anyone realize the amount of money it takes? It is unreal the dollar amount assesed. IC, Bluebird and recently Thomas have revamped their production lines.
I'm glad to hear that they are doing surveys, but that doesn't surprise me. What I meant in my post is that bus FANS don't get a say. Of course people who purchase them would...you determine what sells.
Reply author: CPCSC_TD
Replied on: 01/27/2007 07:29:40 AM
Message:
I was referring to ICDave Thomasbus8516. Sorry if looked as though I cam across at you! My mistake.
Reply author: 03CV200
Replied on: 01/27/2007 08:05:02 AM
Message:
C2 the future!
Reply author: 03CV200
Replied on: 01/27/2007 4:22:33 PM
Message:
In regards to a C2 with a manual transmission, I think I may have found one, but there are no interior pics. It is the 3rd one down on this site: http://www.westernmountain.com/databases/thomasSalesDatabase.php
I believe its a manual because the description says 6 speed transmission. All the other buses on the site specifically say Allison or 2500/3000PTS .
Reply author: 80-RE4
Replied on: 01/31/2007 6:39:26 PM
Message:
Okayy.....These kids are out numbering the negative aspects on the C@@@ Bus.
The kids I drove today usually ride a C2 bus. I asked them if they like the bus they usually have and they said yes. I asked them what the bus was called (I knew what it was -C2- and one kid told me it was the "Future Bus")
They also said that they were the lucky ones to be riding the "future" bus.
Grrrrrrr
Thomas FE buses are 2nd best. Amtran RE #1
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